AA’s Satanic Roots

Alastair Crowley chafed at the long and oppressive list of ‘Thou shalt nots’ in the bible, as well as the hypocrisy he saw in the church in which he followed his father who was a traveling preacher.  So he dreamed up a new religion whose only law was “Do what thou wilt.”  He named it Thelema and spent the rest of his life trying to justify it through a grand unified theory of science, magic, occult and drug use.  He founded two churches in which to practice this religion: OTO (Order of Oriental Templars) and  A∴A∴ (Argentium Astrum – Silver Star).  

The primary purpose of the religion was of course to convince women to sleep with him or engage in various depraved activities and to not complain about it afterwards.  Unfortunately he never achieved much success and died poor and alone, and highly reviled.  

Bill Wilson also dabbled in the occult (and séances and LSD), and although he didn’t know Crowley personally, he was familiar with his work, primarily through their mutual friend Aldous Huxley.  Wilson’s friend Dr Bob, co-founder of AA, was a member of a new charismatic organization called the Oxford Group, in which people found God and spiritual fulfillment by sharing their sins publicly and then making restitution and then recruiting new members.  The group was founded by Frank Buchman, who later became infamous as a Nazi sympathizer: “I thank heaven for a man like Adolf Hitler, who built a front line of defense against the anti-Christ of Communism.”  Buchman was also believed to have sexually exploited the young men in his groups.  Whether the Oxford Group can be described as “Christian” is open to debate, although AA (Alcoholics Anonymous) members insist it is, and therefore that AA is based on Christianity even if most Christian-specific language was later stripped out, and even if Buchman himself was not a respectable individual if not a total hypocrite.  After all, no one is perfect.

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Wilson realized that Crowley’s dream of repealing the laws of sin was probably futile, despite (or because of) his own experience with the occult.  In a flash of genius, Bill W envisioned another option: sin could be committed freely and then paid for later by uniting excessive drinking with the Oxford Group ‘programme’.  In a frenzy of inspiration, he created the 12 Steps and the organization that practiced it: Alcoholics Anonymous.  He gave Thelema to the drinker of alcohol:

    • Thelema: Do what thou wilt is the whole of law
    • AA: The alcoholic is an extreme example of self-will run riot (Big Book p. 62)

The alcoholic commits sins freely while under the influence of an irresistible craving for alcohol, and then makes amends for them by late-middle age.  The process of achieving ‘sobriety’ takes many years and is fraught with a cycle of bingeing and abstinence known as ‘relapsing’ during most of one’s adulthood.  The group held immediate appeal for many people for many reasons.  It was an acceptable form of occultism and satanism with an veneer of legitimacy, and its meetings were even welcome in Church basements.  The group quickly infiltrated the alcohol industry, medicine, and government to transform a pagan religion into a new disease which they called ‘alcoholism’.

Wilson spent the last 30 years of his life “13th Stepping” the newcomers, and though his behavior at meetings had to be monitored due to complaints, he certainly came closer than Crowley to fulfilling the dream.

Satan Gets Mainstreamed

Of course, most AA members deny that AA is satanic (although some do not).  Certainly, it is pagan in its requirement that the new member choose a Higher Power that can be anything, such as a coffee pot, or the group itself, as compared to the First Commandment: Thou shalt have no other gods before me.  The job of the HP is to remove the character defects like greed, jealousy and pride that create the resentments that power the cravings that lead to the drinking that ends in sin (or attempt thereof).  Some claim that AA is “spiritual not religious” because you can choose your own HP.  But that just makes it pagan.  One must believe in their chosen HP: “Faith has to work twenty-four hours a day in and through us or we perish.” (Big Book p. 16)  Some members claim that AA is Christian due to the recital of the “Lord’s Prayer” at the end of each meeting.  However, I have been to hundreds of meetings and never once heard a Christian prayer.  Of course, one can choose Jesus Christ as their Higher Power.  But that is extremely rare,  even if most member say, “I’m not Christian but most members in my group are.”  The claim of Christianity is typically used by younger members as an avoidance strategy: “I wanted to stop drinking, but AA felt too Christian and moralistic.  It triggered the same feelings that drove me to drink in the first place!”  And then they’ll go out for a few drinks.

Most members willing to name the god of their understanding choose various Eastern religions and philosophies that purport to eliminate earthly cravings.  Buddhism and Taoism are popular, along with various deities of Greek and Nordic mythology.  Of all the research on alcoholism, none indicates what percent of members have chosen Satan himself as their HP, although many members are quick to assert that such a choice is perfectly fine as long as it helps you stop drinking.  However, the claim that AA is evil because it’s satanic is met with a furious spewage of insults and abuse characterized by atrocious spelling and grammar as demonstrated in the comments below.

Of course, our country is founded on Freedom of Religion, and people are free to believe whatever they want.  Thank God!  The purpose of this article is not to claim that one religion is superior to another, even if many of the comments here blame Christianity for various atrocities and genocide, not to mention drinking itself.  The purpose here is simply to show that alcoholism is a religion with Satanic roots, and its church is AA.

In this way, AA transformed the religion of ‘drink, sin, amend’ into a disease called ‘alcoholism’.  Of course, compulsive and excessive drinking and drug use existed before AA, and the cause of this behavior was often mysterious to the casual observer, especially since the drinker would not openly admit the real reason, even if they didn’t claim not to have one.  AA gave credence to the Craving Lie:

I wanted to stop drinking but couldn’t no matter how hard I tried.

This is the cult’s central teaching.  They claim their substance abuse was a battle against their own willpower, neglecting to mention the mischief while drunk (often with the claim of ‘blackout’).  The same lie is used by drug addicts to justify an endless parade of reprehensible behavior under cover of a ‘disease’.  In reality, the drug use is only to provide cover for the sin and mischief, and the user can stop any time (withdrawal from all substances, under medical supervision, is universally reported as ‘comfortable’).  They drink because they want to, even though they claim otherwise.  When a AA member says they ‘get it’, this means not that they have been cured of alcoholism (they are likely to relapse many times), but that they learned how to explain away their sins by calling it a ‘disease’.  Often this is followed by the claim: “AA worked for me and it’s the only thing that ever worked.  I was going to die before I discovered AA.”  Anyone who says this simple but powerful lie likely has a few sponsees who they’ve inducted into the religion, and more than a few stories of sponsee abuse and exploitation, like their hero Bill Wilson.  And we are relieved that at least there is a treatment for such unfortunates, having fallen for the Craving Lie ourselves: Why does it matter if AA is religious, as long as it helps them stop drinking?

Step One: “We admitted we were powerless to alcohol — that our lives had become unmanageable.”  Alcohol is simply a god/demon idolized by the alcoholic during their drinking career.  The 12 Step program essentially is a process of exorcism: replacing one god/demon for another less destructive.  Despite the craving lie, most alcoholics claim they didn’t realize how destructive their drinking was, or that their lives had gotten ‘out of control’.  Thus it was not so much a matter of willpower as of realization and honesty, as most members are quick to admit.  Cravings are rarely mentioned at AA meetings.  Go to your local meeting and see for yourself!

Addiction Fiction

Each AA member has his own pet theory of the neurological basis of addiction, generally positing a rube-goldberg contraption consisting of: dopamine, seratonin, mesolimbic neocortex, amygdala, and ‘hypocampus’.  They claim that drug use ‘rewires neural pathways’ to mess up the ‘reward center’ in the brain, which they back up with various Wikipedia articles whose footnotes reference each other, and anyone who challenges this ‘proven scientific fact’ is displaying ‘ignorance’.  Government researchers produce completely bogus fiction about addiction which they pass off as ‘science’; the rehab industry promotes sham ‘evidence based’ treatments; and public policy experts repeat the same old canards about ‘the unimaginable suffering of the addict and their loved ones’ while complaining that the lack of good science about addiction justifies maintenance of the status quo: addiction is a disease not a crime although we should continue to punish people for drug use and refer people who got in trouble while drinking/drugging to AA because it’s free and the only treatment available in most places anyway.  And they refuse even to consider the possibility that treatment actually creates addicts.

AA propaganda is continually imposed on us from Hollywood as well.  For example, in a recent episode of the sci-fi series Extant, grandfather Quinn ‘relapses’ with a shot of whiskey and then immediately makes a double-or-nothing bet on the bar game skills of his robot grandson.  Of course, the wager didn’t turn out well.  If he had taken a moment to ask his HP to remove his ‘greed’, he might have been able to resist the unbearable craving to drink, and walked out while he was ahead.  Portrayals like this inextricably connect drinking with sin, while deferring the penalty.

But the simple and obvious truth is that we are sinners who enjoy sinning, and the religion of alcoholism can provide a convenient cover for those so inclined.  As long as you are willing to tell the Craving Lie and make amends at some future date (typically 40’s / 50’s).

Unfortunately the same principles are used as brainwashing techniques against vulnerable newcomers, often sent by the courts or in search of companionship, who must first confess powerlessness to alcohol (i.e. admit they have a deadly disease) and then to cure it, must confess their sins and insecurities with “rigorous honesty”.  The newcomer is instructed not to date in the first year and is subjected to sexual and financial exploitation.  The lucky ones will eventually escape the group with unexplained bitterness and paranoia.  The less fortunate will be among the thousands each year who succumb to their learned powerlessness in a time of crisis, and thereby contribute to the statistic that testifies to the deadly power of the satanic religion that is considered by most to be a medical disease despite its striking resemblance to old-fashioned demon possession.

Darren Aronofsky: Satan’s Propagandist

As a child, Darren Aronofsky was deeply troubled by the story of Noah, in which God destroyed the wicked in a great flood.  What if God considered him to be among the wicked?  Would he be destroyed too?  He addresses his lifelong despair in his movie Noah (2014), a parody of the bible story.  In Aronofsky’s version, God destroys the world as punishment for man destroying the world.  Noah, who is described as ‘righteous’ in the bible, is represented as angry and capricious in the movie: he chastises his son for plucking a flower then kills a man for killing an animal for meat and calls it ‘justice’.  In the bible story he is instructed directly by God to build an ark.  In the movie, he has vague dreams and frightening visions and questions God’s purpose for him, visiting his grandfather Methusaleh played by Anthony Hopkins who suggests that he should surmise God’s will ‘as best you can understand it’.  He later threatens to kill his grandchildren because he incorrectly infers that God’s will for him is to ensure the extinction of mankind after the flood. The message of the movie is that it’s not safe to trust your will to God. (Even though the Christian God expects you to use your own willpower — only in AA must you entrust it to a higher power.  But if you find yourself at AA, evidently God is not a safe bet – perhaps that was Grampa Quinn’s mistake.)

It never occurred to the young Darren that he simply didn’t have to be wicked.  Though it didn’t help that he was no doubt troubled by Adam and Eve’s expulsion from the Garden of Eden for the innocent sin of eating the forbidden fruit.  After all, God created them with strong desire.  What right had he to punish them for experiencing it, especially as it was manipulated by Satan, another of God’s creations?  He should have created a will that could overcome temptation.  But as a result of this ‘design flaw’, man was punished: expelled from paradise and condemned to a lifetime of work and suffering.  Aronofsky explores the injustice of this ‘mistake’ in his movie Requiem for a Dream (2000), which contains the iconic scene in which a drug addict tearfully unplugs the TV while his mother is watching it, for the purpose of selling it for drugs, apologizing for his behavior and his unbearable cravings but unable to resist.  His will is useless against his desires, just like with Adam and Eve.  This scene, which was completely absurd before it was created, and never actually happened ever in the history of drug abuse, is now acted out on a daily basis by drug users around the world, to the astonishment of their parents who insist that if it’s not real addiction then their child deserves an Oscar for their performance.  (Of course, every parent thinks their child is very talented, especially if they have no TV with which to view the competition.)

Aronofsky seems to follow a Gnostic philosophy, in which God is actually an evil demiurge (aka “The Creator”) who created the material world, which is evil and painful and full of temptations and restrictions and rules and punishments.  And then there is a higher god of the universe, whose only law is “Do what thou wilt,” sometimes represented by Satan for that reason.  Perhaps his movies are an offering to that higher god, in the hopes of being rescued from his brutal subsistence of dating models and toiling on movie sets in exotic locales.

Indulging in sin consciously or otherwise is one thing.  But convincing others to indulge in it too?  Or to teach sin isn’t sin?  That’s just evil.  Though I try not to worry too much about man’s wickedness, even if I haven’t seen any rainbows lately.  Unless you count the movie’s circular rainbows.  But for some reason they provide little consolation.

Nevertheless I enjoyed the movie.

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527 thoughts on “AA’s Satanic Roots”

  1. Ok people… you’ve been there, seen it done it ? it’s all pretty much been said and done…Stop commenting this ridiculous vomit… when you stir excrements, it can only stink. this chap is only getting publicity with more comments. Just let his puke die on itself, by itself… it can’t go anywhere with him/her alone… just another wannabe you wants to make it in the world of the internet… You can pray for him/her though, that maybe the brain cells will calm down and he/she may eventually find truth and peace.

    1. I’m glad for this post….most of the responses have been like going to a meeting with so much encouragement, hope, acceptance, and truth. Then, you have those very few angry people (Trish and myth)…you know those people…those who are constitutionally incapable of grasping a manor of living that requires rigorous honesty. This post is actually very very helpful to those in recovery…to see the healthy people who have found a solution and the very few that can not or will not. “But for the grace of God, there go I”. I love hearing about people’s belief systems…many very different and unique…and healthy. Freedom of the mind, acceptance of all things in life, and seeing where you can benefit another human being is the importance of AA and NA…not what you can get…but what you can give.

      1. I’m not angry. I’m a happy person. I just happen to see AA as a very negative influence on society and on the people unfortunate enough to attend meetings.

    2. I needed the laugh though. AA doesn’t need me to defend it and its traditions wouldn’t want me to, but I sure appreciate the laugh
      Still Dan

  2. “I mean you are obviously responsible for more than a few suicides if not murders, and that is the TRUTH and the truth is coming out about your mischief cult and if you don’t believe it then use your ‘judicial connections’ to sue me for libel and if they don’t laugh you out of the room then I look forward to putting your retard legal counsel in the looney bin. Put your money where your mouth is you low life scum bag murderer.”

    You state that as “truth” and yet you have no proof? I am the low life scum bag murderer responsible for suicides? Again where is your proof? If anyone is or may be responsible for murder or suicide it would be YOU. You are the one telling people that addiction does not exist and that they do not have to do anything about their drug or alcohol use! But hey at least this low life scumbag knows his ass from a hole in the ground which you apparently do not.

    1. “I mean you are obviously responsible for more than a few suicides if not murders, ”
      WoW!!! MYTH!!!!!!!! don’t you see how widely manic and paranoid you are ??? You are going to end up in a psych ward if you don’t take some meds!!!

    2. Please, sue me for libel like you threatened. And I will show you everything you demand to see.

      Many lives have been saved because you have been exposed for the nasty insulting bully that you are. You are powerless and your tricks are ineffective on new members in your group. You are scared because you know the incriminating reports will surface. You should be.

      1. “Please, sue me for libel like you threatened. And I will show you everything you demand to see.”

        First I never said I was going to sue you and here is why; 1 I don’t have the funds to do so. I know the law fairly well and you are libelous. 2- I don’t know who you are. Unlike me you operate under an assumed name. I think you are a coward, and a liar and arrogant as hell.

        “Many lives have been saved because you have been exposed for the nasty insulting bully that you are. You are powerless and your tricks are ineffective on new members in your group. You are scared because you know the incriminating reports will surface. You should be.”

        Do you really believe all of this nonsense? I don’t know what incriminating reports you think you will find but go ahead and look into it. As far as being scared? Not at all. Take your best shot coward. Liar!

  3. Interesting wannabe “Shock and Awe” kind of article… I tried to read it but stopped after the 1st step so called explanation… it gets too all over the place by then to keep my interest. I will though give my 2 cents on it if you don’t mind.

    First thing that is disconcerting is : “You AA’s are a bunch of brainwashed fanatics who are not suffering from anything” type of entry!! Well, not a good way to come out to help your brethren if “help” is what you want to offer… Right there and then bashing everyone who does not OK your theory is well, the very thing you accuse the commenters of doing … Not smart if you want to take people to truth boy!!! But is truth where you want to go here?

    Then trying to ridicule spelling, yeah, made me chuckle a bit, but truly… laughing at people’s spelling abilities, whom we know spent most of their lives drinking, doping and somewhat rioting against God’s laws in every way they could, is not aggrandizing your premise or point… Under the belt blows as cynicism are nothing but admitted defeat!

    Then this Bill Wilson connection to Ouija boards, Aleister Crowley, and satanic practices is … well again… no documents, no proof, not substantiated in any way… Did you practice satanism with Bill? You are doing exactly what you accuse false Wiki article writers of doing; spewing, spreading unsubstantiated anythings and acting like a Jack of all trades, master at none. If I were to tell you that your mother played around and that your father… is not your real father and that I know WHO your father really is… would you believe me? Just an example… 😉

    Then you mix up everything from the active alcoholic doing his misdeeds (Indulging in sin consciously or otherwise is one thing.  But convincing others to indulge in it too?), with the members who try to stop and DO stop drinking. Members who do stop drinking… by the way, do you have the stats on the percentage of members who stopped drinking through AA? I have it! These members have a more or less profound spiritual life, depending on the need of each individual, as is found everywhere in a given society, and try to help, share, feed, clothe, support other members who are on track. By “track” I mean, ones who accept to give up their crazies, desires for lust of all things, lying, excusing unjust actions and/or abuse of others in deeds or in words. These are members of AA. Maybe not the majority of members, but the ones who keep the hope. The others are the “Alcoholic” still drinking… Do you know any members of AA that I just described? I do! Do they do black masses in the night in underground bunkers with new comers? No.
    Do they insult or condemn non-AA members or the ones who keep relapsing? No.
    Do they take what is not rightfully theirs from other members? No.
    Do they play God? No.
    All other members who do… are still egoistically ill or drinking or like a good percentage of any society. What are you? Who are you actually? What’s YOUR real story? How is YOUR ego doing ? Why are you hiding behind a name such as Addiction Myth?

    Then… your “Crowley Do as thou will” connection to AA as a proof that it is satanic in nature is preposterous… The drinking Alcoholic does as he wills… NOT the alcoholic who stops. The one who has stopped drinking has a very tight road by which to walk… He has to give up lies, accusations and abuse of others if he wants to be able to look at himself in the mirror… You must have had an alcoholic family member who truly brushed your feathers the wrong way… and who never stopped… you are very mixed up and angry…

    You state; “The claim of Christianity is typically used by younger members as an avoidance strategy: “I wanted to stop drinking, but AA felt too Christian and moralistic.”
    So what is it? They claim they are Christian or they don’t???

    You state; “Of all the research on alcoholism, none indicates what percent of members have chosen Satan himself as their HP, although many members are quick to assert that such a choice is perfectly fine as long as it helps you stop drinking.”

    How many members have told you such a thing? You claim here there are no stats about satanic practitioners who will admit to have Satan as their Higher Power… WHERE are YOUR stats about members who said such a thing? How many members in all of the groups you’ve researched (how many groups by the way) said this? You are really going easy on yourself and somewhat sloppy here…

    Now… your statement about AA being linked with treatment and rehab centers is just well too stupid to comment…Most rehab centers have close to 0% recovery in long term and most will not even suggest AA meetings. They want people coming BACK to continue their livelyhood!

    There are just too many loose and wild ends here to cover them all, and I don’t think it’s worth the work, I could retake every sentence of this wannabe article but I will sum it up with this; From your point of view alcoholics are the trash of the earth, and AA movement is even worse for having hundreds of thousands stop drinking… Yes, hundreds of thousands who stopped drinking and who try in their different way to help their brothers and sisters to do the same at cost free.

    Conclusion; You want alcoholics to be damned and judged, but you DON’T want them to believe that they are ill and to do all they can to stop drinking!!! If they do, you call them satanists and hypocrites. This is the very workings of satan; accusing your victim of doing the VERY THING YOU ARE DOING and get him judged. It’s flabbergasting how filled with hypocrisy and hatred you are.
    You have to have been very abused and disenchanted to have become the way you are. I pray that you find the real Christ.

    1. Wow thanks for proving just about every point I made. You really make your cult sound awesome and I’m sure mommy & daddy are running out to sign their addict kiddy up for another shot at rehab and your stepper meetings. Maybe you can be Johnny’s sponsor? Help him find Christ? Oh that sounds thrilling!!!

      1. “Wow thanks for proving just about every point I made. You really make your cult sound awesome and I’m sure mommy & daddy are running out to sign their addict kiddy up for another shot at rehab and your stepper meetings. Maybe you can be Johnny’s sponsor? Help him find Christ? Oh that sounds thrilling!!!”

        WOW!!! actually you didn’t make a point. But keep at it. So a question for you, what is mommy and daddy supposed to do with little Billie who is out in the garage stuffing a needle in his arm? I mean should they just go and tell him that is a phase he is going through and he doesn’t need help? I mean god forbid they send him in for treatment where he cane be tested for hep C, HIV and other problems and perhaps get him off meth or heroin.

  4. “And if mental illness didn’t exist, Gavin could certainly create it with his endless tirade of bullying and abuse. Thanks for demonstrating #howitworks”

    LOL. That gave me a chickle. Thanks forgiving me so much power. And if anyone is on an endless tirade of bullying and abuse it would be you the liar. But go ahead and continue to spew forth your Westboro gobbledygook. Anyone with half a brain would be able to tell that you lie. Libelous is what you really are. You say AA is satanic but is yourself that is the demon in disguise telling lies and misleading peaople to their deaths. You are the one who are baring false witness which I believe is against one of the laws of Moses, a Jew.

    1. For someone who works with the judicial system you should know a little more about what legal terms like ‘libel’ actually mean. Truly I am scared for the people around you, and I hope they are reading this. You must have a few notches in your belt. As far as forgiving you, sorry I can’t do that. That’s between you and the Big Guy downstairs.

      1. “For someone who works with the judicial system you should know a little more about what legal terms like ‘libel’ actually mean. ”

        Ok so what you are telling me is that I don’t know what libel means? The dictionary (or is that a book you don’t believe is true?) defines libel as: a published false statement that is damaging to a person’s reputation; a written defamation. So by that definition (if you can believe the dictionary) you are in FACT engaging in libelous behavior. Your written defamations are not only damaging to AA but the scientific and medical world as a whole because they are pattently false, IE a big fat lie. Your written defamations may cause dying people to die because they see your nonsense on the internet which everyone believes is true. It is a lawsuit waiting to happen to you.

        “Truly I am scared for the people around you, and I hope they are reading this. You must have a few notches in your belt. ”

        Why because I actually help people versus lying to them, telling them that addiction does not exist when it clearly does? Why because I tell people that if they don’t stop using drugs they will die? I believe you have it backwards. If anyone should be scared for people around anyone else it should be myself and other right minded individuals being scared for your minions that believe your tripe. As far as a few notches on my belt? What does that mean exactly?

        “As far as forgiving you, sorry I can’t do that. That’s between you and the Big Guy downstairs.”

        Wow aren’t you the arrogant one? You believe that I truly want or need your forgivance? You define narcissist. And even if I needed you to “forgive” me what does your so called good book say about forgiving people? I believe your god tells you to forgive everyone and that he can shoose who to forgive. I could be wrong it has been years since I was duped into believing such non-scientific dogma. With that said if you truly believe in your superstition then you are not a very good christian. Perhaps you should do some soul searching for yourself. You know those who liev in glass houses should not throw stones. The big guy down stairs I presume you mean satan? Does not exist. If you really want to see evil look at how religion has caused more death and destruction in the world because of close-minded bigots such as yourself. Oh and by the way I did pray for you. I asked my hp and my spiritual allies to help me forgive you. Not that it matters but for me I had to.

      2. I mean you are obviously responsible for more than a few suicides if not murders, and that is the TRUTH and the truth is coming out about your mischief cult and if you don’t believe it then use your ‘judicial connections’ to sue me for libel and if they don’t laugh you out of the room then I look forward to putting your retard legal counsel in the looney bin. Put your money where your mouth is you low life scum bag murderer.

      3. Wrong answer boy!
        YOU are asked to forgive and love your neighbor as yourself… which implies UNDERSTANDING God’s workings and evil… You pretend to fight evil here but are actually practicing it full blast. The very way satan works. He destroys the life of humans, animals and everything else which contains hope, while accusing them to snatch away their very soul and lives…

    2. Excellent Gavin Wells….perfectly stated….but there is no way to help someone til they help themselves…acceptance of all things is the key…the disease is cunning, baffling and powerful…working on people 24/7. If they aren’t drinking and not in a program of recovery, the disease has its way with them…it is obvious in this article. I read it and see anger, resentment, hostility, denial and fear…I don’t want any of that self destructive behavior. I just hate that someone would attempt to damage many others with an insane piece like this…I almost think it is a joke…a need for some kind of attention. Anyway, well said..

      1. I am with you Jc. Although this, ahem, “writer” is laying the blame of millions of addicts at the feet of the very institutions that are on the front line of the fight against addiction such as AA and substance abuse counseling, a profession which I am a part of. I will defend not only AA which I am also a part of but my profession as well against those who wish to taint it. If addictionmyth had any evidence whatsoever it would be one thing but all he/she does is spout lies which can be damaging to a lot of people. It is libelous and defamatory. And deadly to anyone who happens across this blog.

  5. And for another thing for all of you Westboro Baptists (Trish, Addictionmyth, et al) if you want scientific evidence about things you must know that there is zero scientific evidence that proves religion saves lives or souls.

  6. “No I’m saying it’s satanic because if you don’t believe it they call you an ‘ignorant putz’ and try to insult and bully you into overdose so you end up at their rehabs (which is a multi-billion dollar scam currently being exposed) ”

    So let me get this straight; you truly believe that AA runs rehab centers? Perhaps you should stop being willfully ignorant and do a little research because AA does not run rehab centers. I work for a treatment facility and we are hardly a “multi million dollar scam.” And AA does not bully people into overdose. If anything you are lying to people to cause more damage than AA ever could. Stop lying about things that you have no knowledge about.

    “or you end up dead, and they cry, “Addiction is a deadly disease and we must do something!”

    In your perverted mind you actually, despite all of the scientific and medical EVIDENCE that proves otherwise, believe that addiction does not exist and that is is not killing people? Where have you been? Apparently despite what the CDC, AMA, APA, SAMHSA and other well known scientific entities are all wrong. Well how do you like that folks? Addictionmyth knows more about “addiction” than the decades of combined research does.

    1. AA doesn’t run rehab centers but they send their scouts to groups to recruit new patients by bullying them into mental illness and overdose and if you don’t believe it then just bring a mirror to your next meeting.

      1. You really are twisted. Scouts? What are you on about? We don’t go to meetings to scout out people. That’s just about the dumbest thing you have posted yet. I have way too much on my own plate to go to AA meetings to “scout” out potemtial clients. I work hand in hand with the judicial system so there is no reason to have to “scout” out meetings. Besides I don’t get paid enough to do that. Pull your head out of your ass. Addiction and mental illness is killing people and morons like you are not helping matters by telling people they don’t have a deadly illness. Addiction may not be a disease in the same sense that cacner is but is a disease and is deadly in it’s own right. Stop lying to people.

      2. My dear Lord… what in hell is wrong with you? Bullying into overdosing? Right… through the Lord’s prayer at the end of the meetings??? For God’s sake, make up your mind boy… you keep insulting people and contradicting yourself like this and you are the one who will head into a mental institution…

      3. So you don’t bully into overdosing. Just mental institutions. Thanks again for the demonstration of how your cult works. The funny thing is, you are completely blind to the fact that you are destroying it in your tenacious (and increasingly desperate) attempts to defend it. Please, proceed:

  7. this article is absolutely ridiculous anyone reading this and would like to learn about AA please read the book AAcoming of age the history of this program… so I do know AA can save your life so don’t listen to the naysayers, I consider myself to be a very educated smart woman

  8. It’s satanic because it’s doctrine came from spirits channeled by Wilson and they teached him a demonic doctrine, some things AA literature says are true, but the 12 steps and the program itself come from the demonic world, it’s very clear on “Pass it on” chapter 16, which is part of A.A. literature. Thanks for the article.

      1. No Jc there is no such thing as insanity. Ask addictionmyth, the expert. And if there was insanity (again ask our resident expert) the term would be delusional not denial. It takes some sort of cognitive functioning to be able to deny that which is right before one’s eyes. Delusion however tells you that there is no such problem and that is what defines addictionmyth and his/her minions.

      2. And if mental illness didn’t exist, Gavin could certainly create it with his endless tirade of bullying and abuse. Thanks for demonstrating #howitworks

    1. So you are saying that, because if doesn’t come from the bible it is satanic? What an ignorant putz. It is no more satanic than that musty old tome you read. The principles of AA are divinely inspired and WORK. They don’t try to lead anyone away from God but they are an open system designed to help people of all races, nationalities, gender, religion or non-religion to recover from a deadly disease.

      1. No I’m saying it’s satanic because if you don’t believe it they call you an ‘ignorant putz’ and try to insult and bully you into overdose so you end up at their rehabs (which is a multi-billion dollar scam currently being exposed) or you end up dead, and they cry, “Addiction is a deadly disease and we must do something!”

    2. Right… repeat what the lunatic of this wannabe article states!!! Just bring the proof… simple enough I would say… BRING THE BLOODY PROOF!

  9. This is absolutely crazy. You are entitled to your own thoughts and beliefs, but don’t knock what millions of people have found to be life saving. You’re obviously neither an addict or alcoholic. Just a “know it all” punk. This article makes you more or less just look dumb. Maybe if you actually had members who came forward in your article say they believed these things, you may have gotten different responses. But it’s called Alcoholics Anonymous for a reason, and that reason being so people like you can’t write bogus articles and include us in them. Addiction is a disease. September is Recovery Month, I invite you to check out some events in you’re area. Unlike some people I have no shame saying I am a person in long term recovery and have not had a drink or drug since March 15th, 2013. And that is ALL due to my higher power (I choose to call God), my sponsor, working the 12 steps and my amazing home group. So quit being so negative about something that has literally saved millions and millions of lives.

    1. So true…I have over 5 years sober. It has been an amazing journey from 2-25-2010 with a gun to my head in complete demoralization and total self centeredness to freedom, security and a purpose to help all people whenever and however I can. My view of the world is now how I can give instead of how I can get. My belief system has changed from a closed religious demanding discriminatory belief system to one where all belief systems are valid and individual…one that accepts all people as important and equal. No matter what terrible events that happen in my life, there is a deep underlying joy, peace and hope. I have not “conformed” to an AA religiin, but have been freed from religion so that my personal belief system in God (HP) exploded infinitely in all the possibilities. The Promises are true…the program of AA brought me to sanity (which most of the world needs whether alcoholic or not)…this program may be a religion for some, but for most it is freedom from self and progress toward complete acceptance. People that disagree have the right to do so..almost all that come, reject it and and leave continue in their addiction leading to prison or death…but mostly self centered lives with no way to help another. Maybe those people can find an easier softer way…but most likely not. H.O.W. the program works….honesty (H), open mindedness(O) and willingness (W)…in all aspects of life…and discovering your own perception of God (HP) and then following your HP’S lead. Religion??? If so, so what…call it what you will. Too bad that ALL people in the world don’t have AA….there would be much less war and more peace with much more encouragement, freedom and helping of others. Bad thing?? That’s the insane alcoholic mind in denial…js

    2. you can judge a tree by its fruits. My father was in AA and a very good soul. One of the kindess, loving, caring ,for giving souls I’ve known. He lived by AA principals in all his affairs. He also loved his church and worshipped Christ. I’d say those where fruits of the Holy Spirit according to the bible. AA helped him to grow deeper in his faith. I walk the same path as he did now following Christ as my God and savior. AA has helped me to grow in my faith as well.

      1. Your dad was a good person before AA – don’t let them take credit for his good qualities just to make it look like the 12 steps work.

      2. Alcohol and drugs are only symptoms of the disease….you can treat symptoms by removing the offending substance. But, the disease is what remains….that can be effectively treated by a program in AA or NA.

    3. Great post Donna. And congratulations on your long-term recovery. I too am in long-term recovery and by the grace my higher power I have been gainfully clean and sober since September 1988. Keep up the good work. We can’t let the loonies like addictionmyth and his/her minions keep us from spreading the gfood word, that there is a solution to this DISEASE.

    4. He can’t … quit screaming in the desert… he’s ill!!! Just like drinking alcoholics are unable to stop drinking while drinking… 😉

  10. Why even write an article like this. If you don’t believe in the Program of AA then don’t attend meetings. Don’t read our lititure. You have a choice. But remember…opinions are like assholes and you are one

    1. That would be fine if it weren’t for certain facts:
      1. Courts frequently sentence people to AA (&/or NA), and AA/NA cooperates by signing paperwork to prove that people are attending.
      2. AA/NA members and outsiders have, for decades, been inserting AA storylines into TV shows and movies (“Days of Wine and Roses” was one of the first)
      3. During the Clinton administration, the federal government put pressure on Hollywood to insert AA/NA/Drug War storylines into TV shows movies
      4. The memes about how alcohol and/or drugs work on humans have influenced our society far beyond those people who think that AA/NA might help. Our courts view anyone with a history of using drugs, even if never convicted of a related crime, as unreliable witnesses – that’s how Robert Blake got away with killing his wife.

      5.The memes about how drugs supposedly work, as well as the currently uber-fashionable meme that people prescribed opiates for an injury/surgery become “addicted” has caused our government to make life miserable for law abiding patients with chronic pain and the doctors who care for them. This is probably the most disgusting result of the actions of a group that people can supposedly choose or not choose to participate in.

      While Donna R may not personally go around trying to make the rest of society conform to AA ideology, there have been many AAers who were not so reticent.

      1. Trish I wish you knew what you were talking about. But alas lassie you don’t.

      2. You are so mixed up. All you are trying to describe here is NOT from AA but sprouts from an industry, of powerful associations and organizations who are into the REHAB market! Which is actually MK Ultra brainwashing, making tons of money from members NOT attending meetings and relapsing.
        You people are so lost in left fields of propaganda and brainwash you can’t find your way back to the road.

  11. You are filled with hatred. One must ask themselves what sort of abandonment issues and unresolved child hood drama motivates you to advertise a hate filled website. AA might be far from perfect like the Catholic Church but the good deeds can not be ignored. AA is certainly filled with crack whores and gangsters who don’t straighten out overnight–but it’s the only therapy that works in sobering up the hopeless cases.

    1. From this whole ridiculous and unsubstantiated copy-paste text, one has to come to the conclusion that the writer only wants alcoholics drinking their lives away… It is a strange thing… very satanic in nature…

  12. I truly believe the person or persons writing this are alcoholics and the idea of quitting is so scary to them that he/she went on the attack . I am praying daily for the enlightenment of their souls. Maybe he / she felt attacked at an AA meeting…when we tell our truths. It happens. The AA Big Book & 12 & 12 encourage us not to get into arguments with nay sayers…the proof is in the pudding as the oldsters always said. I am happy I am sober AA saved my life. No one full of this much venom & fantasy can be happy. Please pray.

    1. I personally believe that, in light of the stunning lack of scientific evidence of a disease – “alcoholism” “addiction ” – that the people who claim to be alcoholics/addicts are either using this claim to get another chance from fed up loved ones, employers, court judges and/or wores for attention.

  13. You are hilariously funny!! I think you enjoy provoking “us”. I don’t believe for a minute than you believe one word of what you wrote.

    1. I believe every word I have posted on this site. There is no scientific proof of the existence of the supposed “diseases” alcoholism, addiction, alcohol/drug dependency. There’s no scientific proof that the 12 steps are of any help to anyone who is exposed to them. AA is about growing AA, not about actually helping people live better lives. AA is bad for our society. The teachings of AA about “powerlessness” have spread to so many aspects of our society – which is terrible for our society and especially terrible for the loved ones of people who take “powerlessness” to heart.

      I know people will post that they or someone they know are somehow “better off” after being exposed to the 12 steps, but to them I say, correlation is not causation. Anyone who wants the scientific community to believe that alcoholism/addiction/substance abuse/gambling/overeating/shopping/whatever-there’s-a-12-step-group-for is a “disease” &/or that the 12 steps is a valid way to treat “diseases” (or even to improve one’s life) it is up to them to provide scientifically rigorous evidence to support that claim. Piling anecdotes on top of anecdotes is not evidence – it is the method of sale of the snake oil salesman, the medicine show, the pyramid scheme.

      1. trish… stop drinking… just stop drinking … just one day at a time… and see someone who is helping MK Ultra programed victims…

      2. You have absolutely no idea what you’re talking about! Alcoholism/Addiction might not fit a dictionary definition of disease but there is proof that alcohol and drugs are physically addictive and can cause physical withdrawal. So why is it so hard to believe that the mental obsession spoken of in the book Alcoholics Anonymous is true? Or even that it has any merit? Also if you knew anything about actual AA and not just your delusional ideals you would know that most alcoholics refer to alcohol as a symptom of the disease! Of all 12 Steps alcohol is ONLY mentioned in the 1st step and God/Higher Power is only mentioned in 6 (unless you count the words spiritual awakening at the beginning of step 12. The point of joining alcoholics anonymous is to first put down the drink/drug so the fog in your head can clear. Then you can dig inside yourself to find out why you had been drinking/ using alcohol as a solution to your problems in the first place. A large portion of alcoholics have been through traumatic experiences that cause internal problems, which, in turn made individuals seek something that could stop them (even if just for a while) from feeling whatever they were feeling that they were in equipped to cope with. Most alcoholics are normal every day people with wonderful spirits! I doubt anything any one says means anything to you but I bet you would enjoy your life more if instead of finding things to ridicule about others you focused on positive things that matter to you and to the people that matter to you! Hope everyone who needs it can find some serenity!

  14. Biggest waste of time. I did have a good laugh though. I’m pretty sure you’re not being very “Jesus like.” Jesus accepted whores. Guess what?! So does AA! Jesus accepted drunkards. Jesus accepted everyone and he didn’t judge them, like you are. Jesus was loving, kind, tolerant, patient, slow to anger, among many other beautiful qualities, unlike you, who thinks you are a God, by judging something you clearly know nothing about. So in this case I think AA is a lot more Godly than you are sir.

    1. A good laugh is never a waste of time.

      In real science, a lack of evidence to support a claim – say that “alcoholism (addiction) is a ‘real, deadly incurable disease’ and/or ‘a read disease like diabetes or cancer'” – that claim is not accepted by the scientific community. That medical establishments in the US currently do accept these unsupported claims probably has more to do with a business model that includes “rehab” facilities as great big money makers. All they need is beds and a line of BS and they can get $40k a month from insurers.

      1. there you go again Trish… Rehab facilities… what a waste of time, rehab has nothing to do with AA… By the way Trish, what’s your spiritual life like?

      2. It’s not meant literally that it compares to cancer or diabetes it’s just an example!

  15. THIS MAN IS EVIL for promoting such crap. He is obviously making money off people somewhere with these crazy fear promoting lies about AA recovery. My husband is alive today with 22 years of sobriety thanks to this awesome program. I have 23 years in Alanon and it saved my life. I sincerely hope that anyone needing help will read the testimonials of those of us affected by alcoholism, and see how these programs have helped to heal our lives and our families, and NOT get sucked into this joker’s ridiculous tales of fear mongering. SHAME on anyone who whould seek to steer people in need away from help!

    1. DOnna the problem with addictionmyth is that he/she/it does not even believe that addiction exists let alone what should be done about it. When someone like this is so delusional about something that is so destructive and even dismisses the APA and other reputable entities’ assertions on the matter, then there is nothing one can do. Except of course stay clean adn sober and imrpove one’s own life. There will always be naysayers and liars such as Trish and addictionmyth.

    2. Exactly! Find out who this guy/girl is… and follow up on his acquaintances and bank account… Then put in in the comments. Proofs are always a damning thing!!! 😉

  16. Before I share this post, I want to know if the writer ever struggled with alcohol. If not, thrn you have no right to speak on this suject, sir. If so, then you aren’t “alcoholic.” For me, I remember going nuts for my next drink. My body craved it. I couldn’t stop it. I have 5.5 years sober. I agree about HP, for me, there is only one God, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. The BB is filled w Bible principles. I had my spiritual awakening in AA. I will take some of this into consideration and pray on it.

    1. Do you know that oncologists are not required to demonstrate that they have suffered cancer before they are allowed to treat cancer patients? What about psychiatrists who treat schizophrenics (schizophrenia, unlike “alcoholism” does show up as consistently located, stable and worsening deformities of the brains of sufferers) – guess what, those psychiatrists don’t have to demonstrate schizophrenia to treat schizophrenia. Imagine if persistent vegetative state patients could only be treated by doctors who were in a persistent vegetative state.

      Expertise is not about “experience” and relying on people telling life stories based on memories that are seen thru ideology-colored glasses. Expertise is about being educated, understanding the scientific method and how properly-done research develops the best information – which sometimes supersedes what used to be the best information (and in medicine, what is the best info about many diseases has changed several times in our lifetimes)

      1. Most mental illness or psychiatric conditions are not diagnosed by mri….very few have a reason. They are almost always chemical imbalance…some associated with amygdala or hypothalamus irregularities. In healthcare, underlying cause of a disease state many times is not seen…but treated anyway. Trish…u like to sound logical, educated and knowledgeable but your reasoning and analogies don’t make sense. Alcoholism and drug addiction are proven to be disease states…it is 100% clear in all psychological circles. There is nobody on here that can help you see or understand this…I question your “director” and “authoritative ” mind…

  17. OMG you have to be kidding AA has helped many alcoholics to stop drinking that is our primary purpose we are not allied with any sect denomination or religion.

  18. This article is complete right wing insanity. To me, it sounds like someone trying to justify, rationalize or minimize their own behavior. The writer has no understanding or concept of AA/NA or recovery…this writer seems to be angry and resentful…I hope they can recover. Satanic?? Interesting since AA promotes a healthy, honest, loving relationship with an infividual’s God…

  19. So why did you go to AA meetings?
    Why the fascination with addiction?
    Can you stop when you want to?
    Why do you believe addiction is a myth?
    Have you ever tried to control anything?

      1. His reply is his answer… where as yours… is the admittance to your fail and defeat boy!

    1. Here’s my “fascination” with the 12 step movement – it has caused the US to have an epidemic of un- and under-treated pain. Because of 12 step memes that have no scientific support about “substances” that “trigger” “addiction” (for example, before my dentist would provide nitrous for Root Canal, I had to sign a waiver that said “I understand that nitrous oxide may trigger addiction”. I researched this online, and found that there’s no science to support this and it’s just a meme that traces back to 1950s AA members just claiming that ordinary everyday items like aspirin or mouthwash “trigger” “alcoholism” the same way a drink does (a “modern” take on this meme is the idiot Jayne Velez Mitchell refusing to use Purell on her freaking hands because she believes it to be a trigger – no science, just a bad idea rattling around her skull like a bebe in a tuna can)

      The most despicable part of the refusal to treat pain is when children with extremely painful conditions or surgeries are not given sufficient pain treatment based on memes unsupported by evidence created by 12 step blowhards who pulled bad ideas out of their asses and spread them to society as a whole to make themselves feel important (probably because deep down they know they are/were a bunch of useless losers with nothing positive to contribute to society, like their long-dead cult-founder Bill Wilson).

      12 step groups are not private little meetings that have no effect on the larger society – they’ve been spreading their untrue and poisonous ideas via radio, magazines, movies and TV from before the publication of the Big Book. The “anonymous” part of “alcoholics anonymous” is not to protect members, or prevent them talking about what goes on in meetings, but to protect AA/12 steps from the members who fuck up in public.

      I’ve also seen people that I know, who are nice people, used and abused by people they’ve met in meetings and blaming themselves. (and I don’t think going to meetings is a sign of a problem – the meme that any recreational use of drugs or even single incidents of overuse of alcohol is “proof” of a problem sometimes entangles innocents in the grasp of the 12 steps). One person I know had colon surgery, then called me complaining that the “addictive brain” was trying to use the pain to trick the person into partying. I bundled the person up and went to the ER where it was found the person’s colon had prolapsed and surgery was needed immediately. This is what bad 12 step ideas can do to innocent people.

      1. Oh, one other thing – if you think what you say in 12 step meetings, or the fact that you attend at all, is private, think again. I can’t tell you how many times someone has told me that they’ve seen a person we both know at a meeting, and the things that person said in the meeting.

      2. You are very mixed up Trish… let’s just hope its not for life… don’t know what went on in your family but… Wo! … You apparently have never fought an extreme addiction or lost the battle to one… You speak like the whitewashed tombs that Jesus whipped at the temple, who were pretending to own the truth of the bible … you pretend to know stats about chemical products and laws, but through it all, everyone can see you are out to protect the so called writer of this so called article in order to leave a destructive trace of an idea that may stick in people’s minds… that is clearly satanic in nature… get help! Repent!

      3. So my posts are so threatening to you that you have to make insulting assumptions not only about me but about my relatives?

        Yet another example of the strength, serenity and honesty that are not taught in 12 step ideology.

  20. This is the Biggest Bunch of Crap I ever Saw. If You Couldn’t Stop Drinking With these steps You weren’t ready and just reading what you said makes me believe You Are On A Dry Drunk, Drinking , Or Just An Asshole. Take your Pick. GARY P.

    1. If it works it’s to AA’s credit, but if it fails, it’s the fault of the individual?

      And this is “treatment” for a “real disease”?

      Funny, oncologists whose patients who still have cancer after chemo don’t blame the patients for not doing the chemo right.

      1. Ahahahaha! Trish… do you work for the pharmaceutical industry? It’s exactly what oncologists do… accuse the patient of not having gone to the multi-million reaping pre cancer programs … or smoking… you are such a fraud… you’re promoting the multi billion scum pharma industry? Do you also cheerlead for Monsanto on your nights off?

      2. I don’t work for the pharmaceutical industry. But I do appreciate the fact that I live in a time when many of the health problems I’ve suffered have been successfully treated with pharmaceuticals such as antibiotics, antivirals, antihistamines, anti-inflamatories, vaccinations – etc., as opposed to having to make due with bleeding, leeches, and snake oil.

      3. It’s because the disease is more of a neurological or possibly psychological issue as opposed to a physical ailment as the ones you mentioned! Ahhhhhh

  21. I pointed out the lies that you have been telling which harms AA which is in FACT libel. Speaking an opinion is one thing lying out your ass is a different ball game.

    1. LOL. Your legal knowledge is about as sharp as your theology. Well sorry you didn’t like the article. Take what you need and leave the rest. Or do you feel compelled to keep coming back for more? Perhaps it’s time to admit: you are powerless to AddictionMyth!

      1. Well Myth… you seem unaware that … In USA and Canada the govs are starting to use libel and imprisonment very loosely to shut people up about their black budget enterprises… would some part of you budget comes from one of those???
        If so, you should be also aware that a lot of people are looking into this… lawyers too, Myth…

  22. This has no resemblance to anything that I know about AA. however it does seem to be here really good example of how to keep doing what you’re doing and die young. I love the references to LSD and dull Wilson which happened in the 1960’s whereas the program was founded in 1937. Bill Wilson was notorious for having depression problems and used to study in the vain attempt to find a solution to that depression. I have no idea why people wish to presented as a cold but this is that are in complete nonsense and if you believe it keep drinking see where you end up. my hat is off to you.

    1. Like I said, AA is a drinking club. If you are unimpressed by their sacred doctrine they say, “Don’t believe your disease will kill you? OK then go out and keep drinking, our hat’s off to you!”

      1. It’s neither. It’s a collection of learned behaviors and excuses to use when loved ones, employers, school administration, parole officers and courts are sick of the bullshit.

      2. Actually, the AMA classified “addiction” a “disease” in 1966 – before that, it was classified an “illness”. Get with the times.

      3. Truly… you are a riot … Just stop drinking Myth… one day at a time… and your brain will start to comprehend the world around you… You must be some wannabe writer drunk as hell most days who is trying to create a career for himself… Read Charles Bukowski then… and follow his steps!! hahahaha

      4. So you’ve been there huh? Can’t stop drinking and most probably was told you’re a lost case huh? Very frustrating indeed… Maybe you were told that your form ego infection is just too deep for help? ahahahaha… just do it one day a time Myth… sober head, can only come from a sober body… Stop whining about your defeat by trying to reinvent the wheel… that is a very Alcoholic reaction…ahahaha. No use to repair the machine when it works… No need for another hero… Just be humble and take your designated place. You are not God. You will NEVER be God. Just accept that… and find a real job…

      5. What would they say to someone who doesn’t want to be there? Keep drinking buddy! What else do you want?

  23. I’m also not exactly sure what you’re trying to say here. If you’re trying to persuade younger people to just go drink instead of being in AA. I’m 24. Honestly, I’d rather be at a meeting, smoking cigs, drinking coffee and hailing Satan with some of the coolest sober “middle-aged” drunks I know, than homeless, shooting dope without anything to live for.

    1. I think they should be out robbing drug stores and joining ISIS and going the wrong way up-the-exit-ramp. LOL I love how steppers always try to hold everyone else hostage to their mischief. Then hold everyone hostage to their sacred ‘sobriety’. “Cosign my car loan or I’ll get drunk and have sex with a middle age creep I met at a meeting and have a baby and you’ll have to raise it while I’m out partying.”

      Don’t believe it? Just post your drunkalog/drugalog and see for yourself.

      1. Ahhhhhh! we are getting somewhere here Myth… so you’ve been the fool of some alcoholic huh? Ahahahahha… poor poor you!!! Tough huh? Alcoholics are smart aren’t they… and your rage at the fact you couldn’t outwit or destroy him or her is so overwhelming huh… Won’t let you sleep huh? Well there is always ALANON for you boy… ahahahaha you are one twisted frustrated sicko… YOU are the one heading into ISIS type orgs…

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