AA is a Pagan Cult

So what if AA is a Pagan cult? Whether or not you think alcoholism is a disease, AA helps people who are in a really bad spot and keeps them out of trouble.  They are less likely to drink or do drugs while attending meetings and performing the 12 Steps.  Why so stuck up on Christianity?  What’s the problem here?

There are so many problems with the above statement I don’t know where to start!

So let’s start from the beginning.  Well not quite the beginning. Let’s start with the story of Moses and the 10 Commandments.  In this story we see the advent of monotheism and the Israelite’s God’s crushing of the practice of paganism/polytheism.  Now, put aside your prejudices about monotheism and polytheism.  Those are actually irrelevant for our purposes.  We are just looking at what happened:

God had rescued the Israelites from 400 years of slavery. They had escaped from Egypt, and had just started wandering in the desert.  God called Moses to Mount Sinai. So Moses went up. But it was taking a while. From Exodus:

32:1 And when the people saw that Moses delayed to come down out of the mount, the people gathered themselves together unto Aaron, and said unto him, Up, make us gods, which shall go before us; for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him. 32:7 And the LORD said unto Moses, Go, get thee down; for thy people, which thou broughtest out of the land of Egypt, have corrupted themselves:  32:19 And it came to pass, as soon as he came nigh unto the camp, that he saw the calf, and the dancing: and Moses’ anger waxed hot, and he cast the tables out of his hands, and brake them beneath the mount. 32:22 And Aaron said, Let not the anger of my lord wax hot: thou knowest the people, that they are set on mischief [alternate translation: You know how prone these people are to evil.]. 32:23 For they said unto me, Make us gods, which shall go before us: for as for this Moses, the man that brought us up out of the land of Egypt, we know not what is become of him.

The point is, from ancient times, the practice of paganism is associated with evil.  There is no clear authority, and therefore the people can follow and worship the god, and the code of ethics, of their choice.  This lead to chaos and mischief.  Exactly what kind we can only assume, but probably the kind that went against the new laws that God issued in the form of the 10 Commandments.  The first of which is:

20:1 I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. You shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself a carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or serve them, for I the LORD your God am a jealous God,visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and the fourth generation of those who hate me, but showing steadfast love to thousands of those who love me and keep my commandments.

Then it goes on the remaining commandments: honor your parents, don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t covet thy neighbor’s wife.  Etc. Etc.  

But what a strange first commandment!  Why does it matter what god you believe in, as long as you are a good person and do good things?  This puzzled me as a young religious school student.  And no doubt, many Sunday school class hours were dedicated to this very issue.  Why does it matter?

It matters a lot!  This is a HUGE problem in ethics.  For even if we create a code of ethics that sounds pretty reasonable, ultimately we have no reason to accept it over any other, except by our own judgment.  And no doubt that was a big problem in ancient times.  And no doubt, people could justify all kinds of injustice from plausible principles.  For example: God doesn’t want poor people to suffer so it’s ok to steal from the rich.  The great innovation of the 10 Commandments is that the question of authority is answered in the very first commandment.  Now of course, you don’t have to accept that commandment either, but then you are at risk of death, along with 4 generations of your descendants.  Scary stuff.

Fortunately for the sake of civilization, the 10 Commandments are pretty reasonable, and have stood the test of time.  (The only thing inexplicably missing is a commandment against abusing children, sexually and otherwise.)

If you are a good person at heart, it doesn’t matter what you believe in.  You’ll generally do the right thing.  The problem is, what if you’re not a good person?  What if you are angry, a liar, manipulative, or cruel?  What if you enjoy hurting others and taking things which are not yours?  What if you are tempted by a beautiful woman walking alone?  In this case, the purpose of the first commandment really shines.  You don’t do these things because you will be killed, and your children will suffer too.  If you believe it.  And no doubt, many people believed it, for how could they know otherwise?  And this belief lasted thousands of years, until people stopped believing it.  And injustice reigned again.  So they had to raise the stakes.  Jesus came along and emphasized the greater reward of eternal Heaven, or punishment of eternal torture in Hell.  Be good, children!  And this worked for a while too.  Still does, for the most part.  But lots of people stopped believing in God.  No problem for the ones who are good at heart.  But what about the bad ones?

Alcoholics Anonymous came along in the 1940’s, introducing its 12 Steps.  The first 3 are:

  1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol – that our lives had become unmanageable.
  2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
  3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.

Yes, there is a mention of God.  Is this a Christian God?  Clearly, not at all.  It’s the God “as we understood him”.  It’s about as opposite to the Judeo-Christian God as you can get.  In fact, in the Big Book, you can choose any concept of God that you wish: “You can, if you wish, make A.A., itself your ‘higher power.’ Here’s a very large group of people who have solved their alcohol problem. In this respect they are certainly a power greater than you.”  (Big Book, p. 27) Or it could be a tree or coffee pot, as Steppers are wont to declare.  Of course, this is pure heresy.  If you can believe in anything, then you can believe in any code of conduct you like.  If you’re a good person, no sweat.  If not… Houston we have a problem!

But at least it cured their compulsion to drink, right?

Wrong!  AA is a drinking club for mischievous young people one small crisis away from their next relapse.  Also in the club are older men who model the abstinence-binging cycle (which in their case lasts through middle age).  And finally are the sad and socially inept, who go to AA seeking companionship but end up being brainwashed into addictive behaviors and manipulated for sex or money, and ultimately leave the group in disappointment and anger.

AA is a refuge for scoundrels and criminals.  They can justify any type of behavior due to the pagan belief system, including lots of well-documented criminal behavior.  We tend to think that alcoholism causes criminality. In fact the opposite: criminals use alcohol as a cover for their mischief.  They do this with the help of AA:  as long as you claim to be unable to control your drinking, then you can attend AA and everyone thinks you’re trying to get better.  But remember, this is a bad person.  A scoundrel.  A criminal.  Do we believe them when they say they have an unbearable compulsion to drink?  I don’t know about you, but I tend to think not.  They are perfectly in control of their drinking, and will do so when convenient.  (Yes extreme alcohol use can cause withdrawal symptoms (delerium tremens), but these do not contain actual cravings for alcohol, and can be alleviated medically.)

Most people in AA do not choose a Christian god as their higher power (e.g. Jesus Christ).  Most choose a pagan entity such as a ‘creative spirit’ or any of the many gods in the many spiritual pantheons like Buddhism, such as a god for prosperity.  Yoga is very popular within AA.  People in AA are not Christian, and it would be a mistake to assume they bring Christian concepts to bear, such as alcohol being evil.  Mentally ill people may choose a voice in their head as their Higher Power, and in fact sometimes are encouraged to do so.  One poster on the recovery forum on Craigslist was encouraged to use one of his spirit guides (ancestors) as his higher power.  Only problem was, he couldn’t always tell which ones could be trusted.

Again, whether or not you think Paganism is inherently evil, certainly it is attractive to the rebel and the trouble maker, and it is much easier to justify evil behavior under a Pagan theology.  AA lays it out on a silver platter: the alcoholic has carte-blanche to do as he pleases.  If sober, he can act according to a belief system of his choice.  If drunk, he can act any way the evil spirits in the alcohol direct him.  And as the innocent sufferer of a disease, it’s not really his fault.  It’s a brilliant scheme!

The most common ‘sin’ encouraged by AA is philandering, and in fact AA is a sex club for many.   This is certainly true in the gay community as aging men seek an alternative to the bar scene.  Many are quite open about going to AA simply for the purpose of hooking up.  If they have to claim to be alcoholic, so be it.   Also, many lonely people are attracted to AA, and these people are often abused and manipulated by the cult for sex or money.  Some people drink in order to escape the wife and kids, but of course they don’t want the family to think that, so they go to AA and pretend to be alcoholic.  “It’s not that I don’t love you.  It’s that I can’t help drinking.  I’m sorry.  I’m just a sick person.”  (Though the family is usually complicit in this scheme, to some extent.)  And then they go to a couple meetings.  Or say they are going to an AA meeting and do something else.

Another reason for excessive drinking is to provide a convenient excuse to dump the current girlfriend: “I need to be single.  This relationship threatens my sobriety.”  Closet homos love AA because it keeps personal questions at bay: “Why don’t you go out?  Because I’m an alcoholic and can’t be tempted.” (And then go to a gay bar or cruise online.)  Many people involved in criminal activity drink to soothe a troubled conscience.  Alcoholics seem to have no difficulty justifying any kind of reprehensible behavior, including for example, meeting and flattering foreign dictators who threaten world war.

And of course, many women drink as a way to express anger and engender sympathy. It’s a “cry for help.”  Often this is out of anger toward a parent who did not provide adequate love and attention.  Most female speakers at AA meetings I’ve attended have shown great resentment towards their mother.  Drinking and drugging was an effective way to get attention and revenge, without admitting one’s anger and jealousy.  It’s a form of self-destructive revenge, like cutting.  And it can lead to suicide in extreme cases.

And then there are those who just enjoy fighting, bullying, arguing and being cruel.  Many people are perfectly good at this sober.  But why not have a few drinks before hand?  All the more fun, plus you can always say that you were just drunk.  Plus you can later claim that you were addicted to alcohol.

One could also view alcoholism as a form of demon possession.  When someone drinks, it’s like they are possessed by an evil spirit. We may have experienced this with a friend or family member, and it’s scary.  There is no way to control the person, other than to hope they sober up and calm down.  Now add to the mix that the alcoholic has an irrational craving, or a subtle corruption in thinking that tells him to take the first drink, and we are off to the races.  So the 12 Steps could be viewed as a process of exorcism — overpowering and expelling the demon.  We might be tempted to think that it is then compatible with a Christian ideology.  But this parallel is illusory.  We are just replacing one demon with another.

And what of the claim that AA keeps people from drinking?  In fact, AA is no more effective at reducing drinking than any other therapy, or no therapy at all.  Most people moderate drinking on their own.  And what about the claim that AA keeps people out of trouble?  There is no evidence for this either.  AA does not reduce criminality over no group attendance.

When someone says, “AA works for me and it’s the only thing that ever worked for me,” they are not saying that they will no longer drink, or will not engage in criminality.  There is no evidence for this.  All they are saying is that they figured out how to use the drinking club for mischief and for abusing and manipulating others.   To what extent this is conscious on the part of the members I don’t know.  But if not, I hope to make it so!

In addition to the concept of God, there are other important differences between the 12 Steps and the 10 Commandments, that point out the dangers of the AA ideology.  The next most important is how we deal with sin.  In the 10 Commandments, we are prohibited from killing (6), adultery (7), stealing (8), bearing false witness (9), and coveting our neighbors wife or property (10).  The reward for keeping the commandments is God’s “steadfast love”.  We can only presume that the punishment for failing to do so is death.

Compare this to the 12 Steps:

4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7. Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.

This presents an entirely different concept of sin.  Instead of being prohibited from evil behaviors, we are praying to our god to remove the kind of thinking that leads to the urge towards this type of behavior.  For example, we may find ourselves with lust toward our neighbor’s wife.  Pray to god to remove it.  We may want to steal money from a house.  Pray to god to remove our greed.  We may be jealous of a more successful friend or sibling.  Pray to god to remove this ‘character defect’.

Obviously this is impossible.  These are normal human emotions and cannot be removed as if they were a psychic tumor.  The key is to learn to deal with these emotions in a healthy and mature way, without acting on them.  With good parenting, most children learn how to do this.  In a way, the God of the Judeo-Christian religion is like a loving parent: “Don’t hurt, don’t steal, don’t be jealous.”  Whereas the god of the 12 Steps says, “Pray to me so that I can remove your anger, jealousy, and resentments.”  In fact, according to the 12 Step ideology, the key to ending the cravings is to remove our daily resentments about things.  This then enables us to contact our HP (Higher Power), which then removes our defects of character and then the cravings to drink.  Yes, this is actual AA theology.

Imagine a child who is walking with a parent and steps into the street without looking.  The parent might say, sternly, “David, don’t walk into the street without looking.  You can get hurt.”  If it happens again, the child gets a whack and another stern warning.

Or the parent might say: “David, don’t walk in the street without looking.  You could get hurt and then you’d feel sad and I’d feel sad.”  If it happens again, the parent says, “David, I’ll give you an ice cream if you don’t walk in the street.”

These two different parenting styles show the difference between the two ideologies.  The first approach will be more successful in the long term in fostering good behavior.  The second approach may work briefly, but will ultimately backfire.  A child isn’t necessarily afraid of feeling sad.  So it’s not really a disincentive.  Plus, they are rewarded for pushing boundaries (which is the child’s job). In the same way, bad people are not necessarily afraid of their own foibles.  They may actually cherish them.  Thus, they can easily choose a god who is unable to remove this defect.  Or the god of their choosing might be out to lunch when the prayer is offered.  It is too easy to blame the mischief on something else.

And in fact the AA cult lionizes criminals and scoundrels.  Recently a Craigslist post eulogized the mafia gangster and murderer Henry Hill (also alcoholic), and the group members all offered condolences.  The post has since been deleted, as are many posts that are unflattering to AA.  Henry Hill excused his own mischief, with the easy excuse that his god simply failed to remove the defects of character that caused it.  The AA cult is a refuge for scoundrels, criminals and liars.

Step 10 says: “when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.”  This sounds good. One should apologize quickly.  But this becomes a habit for AA members.  Commit the crime, then apologize and blame the addiction.  We’ve all seen children who do this.  They get into trouble and then quickly hug mom and say “I’m sorry.  I love you.”  But of course they learned this behavior from the parent who failed to properly discipline the child (in the second parenting example above).  It’s a sign of an incipient sociopath.

The 12 Step theology cleverly exploits Christianity’s requirement to forgive and to turn the other cheek.  They can get away with mischief because we feel like we are being ‘divine’ by forgiving someone who is sick.  Plus they are praying, and that can’t be a bad thing, right?  So what if they are praying to a different god.

They also exploit the Christian concept of Redemption, as taught in many  New Testament parables such as the “Eleventh Hour” and “Prodigal Son”.  Like the subject of the parables, the alcoholic lives a sinful life, often self-professed liars, cheaters, and master manipulators, until late in life when they repent and seek forgiveness.  And as good Christians, we must admire them and accept their conversion.  Never mind that they are a disciple of a god of their own choosing.  And in fact often they will reunite with the family they abandoned, and become more honorable.  But with one glaring exception: these people are the strongest proponents of the myth of addiction, claiming that they were unable to stop drinking under their own power — thereby paving the way for young alcoholics to repeat the cycle.  (Note: these people were liars before their first sip.  Do you believe their account of addiction?)  These Paganists are clever!

And whereas Christianity values “peace on earth”, AA extols “serenity” — inner peace.  This sounds good because it would mean they’d be less likely to crave a drink.  But in fact, it simply suppresses normal emotions that we all must learn to deal with.  It leads to the “Serenity Now” paradox, in which one tries to calm oneself down with a mantra, but then suddenly explodes due to suppressed anger.  You can’t suppress or excise negative emotions, although the Big Book claims that the HP will give you the power to “match calamity with serenity”.  This philosophy only sets up the drinker for the binge-abstinence cycle.

An outsider looking at the group might assume it is Christian simply because it believes in the devil (which uses alcohol as its tool).  But the devil exists in many religions.  And in fact the reality is that the group idolizes drugs and inebriety!  (Just go to your local AA meeting or listen to their stories — see the Meetings Blog.)

Bill W, the founder of AA and creator of this brilliant scheme, was a philander both before and after his sobriety.  If you want to believe that he was hopelessly addicted to alcohol, fine.  But the simpler explanation is that he used alcohol as a tool to escape his wife and roam for sex.

As heresy, Paganism has an inherent appeal to rebels and trouble makers, though it is not clear to what extent its followers are aware of this.

Paganism has been around longer than any other established religion.  AA gives it acceptance and credibility, and allows it to enter the mainstream using drugs and alcohol as the vehicle.  As with any good heretical cult, it is cloaked in the prayers of Christianity, the religion of the establishment, to avoid scrutiny and controversy.  In fact, many people dislike AA at first because it seems too religious/Christian.  But anyone who gets too hung up on these pedantics is probably not AA material to begin with.

If AA is so heretical, why is it tolerated by established religions?  For example, some churches allow AA meetings.  Also, the Jewish group Taglit-Birthright Israel offers “sober” trips to Israel for young people.  Perhaps it is because they don’t realize that AA is a Pagan cult.  Or maybe they don’t think it’s dangerous.  Or maybe they know it’s dangerous but prefer to keep their enemies close.

76 thoughts on “AA is a Pagan Cult”

  1. I was in AA over 20 years. I left after becoming a Christian . I found it frightening the accounts of the AA book “Pass It On” on pages 275-280 where it describes the original members of AA having seances and contacting familiar spirits.
    This is not a Christian fellowship, it did not stem from Christianity, there are no Christians in AA. The book ” Sermon On The Mount” is not Christian. It reminds me of the Jefferson Bible. Masonic doctrine AKA paganism, dietism.
    I had a hard time finding actual alcoholics while I was there. When I would get to know someone I would find that they were usually lying about their drinking and had a substance or sex addiction.
    After leaving AA many members tried to get me to believe that it is Christian. There claim is “it is divinely inspired” or ” we say the Lords prayer” .
    More accurately it was inspired by divination. It is a pathetic place. When someone would kill themselves they were always accused of “not getting it”. The reality is they got it perfectly.
    They asked some random god to come into their lives and it did.
    It take communion once a month and I don’t drink other than that. I don’t want to.
    I guess I’m not a “real alcoholic” , but it’s hard to be because there is no such thing.
    Jesus can break any generational curse, you just won’t ask him. I take accountability for my sin, which is pretty much never. AA encourages sin by laughing at it.
    Leave while you still can. The first commandment should clear things up for you.

    1. I believe everyone should live and let live. If your way worked for you. then I applaud that. If AA works for others, leave them alone and let that work for them. The point is to get clean and sober, in whatever addiction. Something that was said in the halls of AA …”it works if you work it” . And I was always told if that whatever was said in those rooms I couldn’t use, to throw it out and keep what I could use. The freedom to choose was and is always there. I don’t care what went on when AA was first founded. All I care about is how it affected me today. In AA, you have the freedom to choose what to call your Higher Power…point being doesn’t matter what you name them….God, Jesus, Buddha, whatever. And by laughing at the addiction, it loses it’s power over us, and we don’t take ourselves so damn seriously. Remember? We alcoholics are a sensitive lot. Life is not sack cloth and ashes. It’s meant to be lived joyfully.

    2. Why does it have to be christian! Also paganism is neither bad or wrong. If a system works for these people, all well and good. This is another case of christians wanting to run every thing. You need to learn tolerance . Live and let live. We are not all christian!

  2. The best thing that ever happened to me was God leading me to AA. I owe my life and serenity to the program.

  3. Wow… what on earth gave you such a hatred? I feel for ya. I attend both AA and NA. Not everyone there is well by any means and I have come across on occasion a pretty sick meeting and you may have to hit a few before you find one your comfortable with but no doubt in my mind it saved my life. My alcoholism and addiction had spiraled to a point that nothing could help me stop. I really did overdose and die. At a time in my life that I did not even believe God existed I might add. I remember waiting for my heart to beat again and suddenly realizing I was no longer breathing as well. I still remember feeling the cold sweep over as I left my body and had my judgement day. I watched my entire life flash before my eyes and then it was over and the vision I was watching shrunk down to a pinpoint like the old school computers used to when you shut them off. I was miracously brought back to life and when I awoke several hrs later I knew without a doubt God had given me another chance. I was saved and truly filled with the Holy Spirit and the next 3-4 days were the most sure that I would never drink or do drugs again and absolutely glorious right up until that 4th day that I started in on my next horrible meth runner and shortly after I no longer believed God existed. This was one of many miracles that have happened in my life and during my addiction. Cause if your an addict or an alcoholic once you finally cross that line of no return there is no amount of fear, chaos, problems, damage to others, or miracles from God that can save you. I don’t care what the scientific facts or religious beliefs are, if your there where I was your fucked. Here is what did save me. My life of chaos and misery that I absolutely hated and although I didn’t want to take that first hit so bad after a couple days sober that I’d manage now n then I still continued to do it. It got so bad that I had to go off by myself until I had that first 1/4-1/2 gram in my system. Even before and as I started up I would get violently ill and puke and dry heave until I was high. This went on for some time. I finally reached a point that was the greatest desperation I have ever reached in my life. This was several years after my death and revival and not only did I not believe God existed I had a hatred for self righteous judgemental “Christians” who don’t truly understand the bible and given me a hatred for the bible as well. In my desperation I walked into an NA room not by court order but of my own free will this time and asked how to get clean and sober. Someone who did not believe in the bible but acted much more like a “Christian” than most who claim to be showed me how to find a God of my understanding and a better way to live through the steps. I have been clean and sober for almost 14 years now and I don’t know for sure if I would still need to go to meetings but I love going. Just tonight I got to spend some time trying to give another struggling addict who just got out of prison this morning some hope he can find a better way of life. Whether he has hit the end of his rope and gets it this time around or not, it certainly did help me grow spiritually to reach out and try help another struggling human being without any judgement or expectations and I really hope he gets it. Anyway my God of my understanding started out as “something bigger than me, helped those people get clean in that room of NA I walked into”. This was my beginning of my path back to God who is still the same I found that day but just grown tremendously and I’ve long ago shortened his name to God. : ) Over time I have continued to work the steps, share my experiences with others, and through additional searching to strengthen my relationship with God I studied all sorts of philosophies, religions, and spiritual beliefs and have come back around to the bible with a complete new understanding than I ever was taught before and accept Jesus as my lord and savior, repent of my sins in his name, and everything I have learned from the bible has strengthened and added to my 12 step program and when I come across people in the rooms who are spiritually ready to hear about God and Jesus on the level that I know him today I love sharing what I know with them and occasionally even get a few to go to church to add to their program. And when I come across someone who was as fucked up as I was when I came into the rooms instead of being a self righteous judgmental prick touting my bible as a saved Christian and telling them they are going to hell if they don’t repent. In the fashion that Jesus teaches me I smile, show them love and compassion as someone once showed me and tell them some of my story as an addict and tell them that there is hope for them if they are willing to find a power higher than themselves and give the steps a try. Then I pray that if it’s Gods will that I may be a vessel of his that I only share what he knows they can handle at that moment so they feel comfortable to stay in the cult. And I pray for them that they may some day be lucky enough to find God in their hearts and accept Jesus as their savior as I have. I’m so sorry that this was not your experience as well. I love my life, I love God, I am so happy I have come to finally begin to understand what the bible is really about and accept Jesus as my lord and savior. I probably read the bible a lot more now days than the big book but I owe it all to this cult. I’m not saying that there aren’t people who get clean and sober other ways and through religion but there are many people such as me who this was the only way it worked and I know it was God guiding me to the best I was able to understand at the time gently back into his grace. If your a “Christian” passing judgement or telling some struggling addict or drunk that AA or NA isn’t the answer and they are going to hell you’d best be careful or you may have a little surprise in your judgement day conversation.

    May God bless you ALL!

    1. Why does NA and AA sign court slips? Is this breaking the traditions.
      Tradition 6) An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.

      Signing slips is lending the name to an outside enterprise. In this it is the government.

      1. Well then blessed beelzebub! Demon possessed what a riot you are. Perhaps your westboro baptist church is much better? I mean they tend to be on the “straight and narrow” now don’t they?

      2. Steve,
        The courts send those people to AA because its the only thing that works . It is very assessable . And maybe they will learn something before they kill themselves or others in an auto accident, This would be tragic that is unless you were the victim . Looser

      3. No problem with money
        No problem with property
        No problem with prestige
        Right?
        AA doesn’t sign court cards
        Some meetings, via the group conscience,
        Don’t deal with cards
        Others do.

  4. Im in total agreement. It doesnt matter what anyone says, because “addictionmyth” is invested in their belief. I stumbled across this too and I wanted to share my experience. We all have our own personal journey and I was blessed to have people share with me what it was like for them in addiction and what it was like after getting sober. They gave me hope.

  5. Everyone is entitled to their opinion, however misguided it may be. All I can say is that AA and the 12 steps saved my life. I have been sober for 25 years because I CHOOSE to continue to work the steps and practice the principles in all my affairs. As a result, I have God in my life, I have serenity, prosperity and love. I lead a sane life and strive to be a good person and do the work God called me to do (Nursing). AA may not be for everyone but it worked for me and I am grateful.

    1. Yikes. How many people have you brainwashed into powerlessness during those 25 years and watched them die? (Or did you use your nursing skills to revive them just in the nick of time?)

    2. Why does NA and AA sign court slips? Is this breaking the traditions.
      Tradition 6) An A.A. group ought never endorse, finance, or lend the A.A. name to any related facility or outside enterprise, lest problems of money, property, and prestige divert us from our primary purpose.
      Saving your life and saving your soul are two different things. I was a member of AA from 99-summer 2014. I met some good people, but the group has demonic people in it and unless you want to be influenced by demons, get away.

      1. YES YES YES Stevn we must all get away before we are possessed. Go back to the bars and your drug dealer’s place because we know for damned sure that no one there is possessed. Or better yet folks find your nearest branch of the westboro baptist church for good orderly direction because we all know they are doing right by gawd.

    1. Soy mienbro de AA somos mas de 2 millones. De mienbros y por 20 years no e tomado alchol el progama da resultado para el que quiera dejar de sufrir [no canbies la sonrisa de tu familia por una copa]

  6. Wow. Before AA, I rejected God. The God I was exposed to was punishing. AA showed me that God is loving. As far as saying we can do what we want and all is forgiven, I have a couple of problems with that first, I have never been told go rip somebody off, its ok because you are in AA. Of course its not ok. Some of the litature says some of us have grave emotional difficulties but we too can recovery if we can be honest with ourselves. Being honest to me is admitting that I was a selfish pos that didn’t care about anyone else. Drinking is but a symtom of the underlying malady. So yeah, there are a lot of svrewed up people in AA. My second problem is what about a born again Christian? Are they in a cult too? Same premise God will forgive you. There are also a lot of sick people in Churches who continue in depravity but its ok because they have been saved. Say what you will but what you don’t get is you are held accountable. Step 10 isn’t intended for you to get doing stupid stuff and all will be well. People are human, they make mistakes and they should own them. You go on and try not to make the same mistake again. And let me tell you, if you are dealing with honest people in AA, they make sure to tell you not everyone is going to forgive you or should they. You need to man up and face the facts that you were a pos and go on.

    1. My name is Tricia and all of my 12 steps call me Trish and I am from the Texas City 518 Group and the Galveston New Leaf Group and the 33rd and P Group. I have gone to several other meetings in different city’s. I became a member of AA when I followed my grandparents into the birthdays and anniversary’s and I liked all of their old friends and as of today I am still friends with them when a quite of few get real old and still go to meetings and speak the truth on their experience and strength and hope and still struggle on health problems on getting old and leaving all their friends and they all worry how each and everyone will make it as a whole body of AA their home group when they die.when you lose a family member it is tough but when you lose a AA friend that resembles the family member who cannot forgive but your AA friends help you to learn how to forgive others as well as your self and that is a gift from god and only god can put that right person and place and thing and situation in your life when it is god’s time not mine and if I hurry what god is working on I will mess up my patience and acceptance on waiting for what god or our higher power has better for us. And I always get impatient and throw a monkey wrench in and never get the correct results
      Lately everything around me is going exactly the way god has intended for it to be.

      1. ricia wants to share this everyone has a friend and a sponsor in AA and in NA and in all the 12 steps programs and they do understand you and gives you a purpose of becoming a person that you never thought you could be or can be and aftet a dear friend in these 12 step programs or if a hurricane damages a building whete a woman or a man went fortheir rehab or outpatient/inpatient therapy has been not rebuilt as of yet or if a social security patient or a ssi patient loses their income temporarily after having it monthly since the year of 1998 and having a surgery for being electcuded by hurricane damages in the house you live at and then to top it off yiur grandmothers house you helped rebuild in back inthe days so you could luve there and they gave yoy a gift and a gify if knowing all of theur AA/NA friends jyst incase some ither famuly trys and takes everything away from you as they had done to their own or the ones who do mot understand what the AA program is all about as well as the SSI social security program is all about when at a AA meeting several landlords and homeowners said they do not have enough of money to rebuild homes that the government ssi medicaid insurance checks go to it social security medicare insurance checks go to or AFDC/WIC /Medicaid/Medicare insurance checks go to or unemployment insurance checks go to and they act as if it was a government problem so the ones on medicaid/medicare checks said let’s us ask our doctors and our lawyers who helped us get our checks and a copy of our rent for repairs out of our check each month and if we all can could we at least honor our checks and let our lawyer and our nurses and our doctors and our AA rehab therapists to help us decide on how much we could spend to help our landlord homeowners not to tear down the houses we all live in but to rebuild the roof outside and inside and whatever needs for the house to be safe to continue living out our fifty or our hundred year lease with our two grandmothers there at their flower shop homes and where they were always taking flowers to at their aa homegroup and at first it was agreed on only 750.00 or 950.00 or 1000.00 well then it came up in discussion how many roof workers do we need 10 or 16 or 20 and how much to pay them $4.25 a hour or $150.00 or $200.00 for each man so out of 25 homes my two grandmothers have they needed to get fixed so the homeowner and landlord sent out their son or their son’s brother in law with a receipt book of picking up $100.00 a month then it was every week or every two weeks and then every three days a total of $5,000.00 then our social security ssi lawyer Mrs. and Mr. Melody Matthews and our ssi doctor a Dr. Terrance S. Early MD. and our social security nurse
        Linda Hardee Hardy Harvey and our social security doctor a Dr. James Francis Eades who helped us to receive our government checks drew up a payment in what to pay a month they said we could write it in as rent instead of for roof supplies with the landllords who are also aa members and are our father’s and family while they were there and agreeing to it and we did not approve of a lie to disrespect the name of my sdi check ir the name of my two grandmithers who allowed me to rebuild their house while i was going to cillege and graduated to luve there moving from a apartment into a house so at the aa meeting i said let me get with the college in texas city.texas 77590 where i graduated from in 1994 and in 1995 to get a up to date college permit to rebuild my two grandmothers roof inside and outside and to get the list on the construction crew who helped me rebuild the old tore down home from 1993 to 1995 so I could move on in and to apply for a permit for the same apartment i lived at from 1986 to 1995 they are brairwood apartment roofers and my cousin’s on my two grandmother’s side and my mother’s side from austin, texas to return and get paid again for rebuilding the roof where I moved into in 1995. I applied for a college student credit permit to up date the rebuilding on a project on rebuilding my roof after a major hurricane as hurricane like that came through Galveston,TX in 2008. I was injured bad to where I needed surgery I was electricuded after turning on a light switch in the kitchen and bathroom to where my whole body went numb and there are times that I do fall it face or my sides or backwards hitting my head so hard knocking me completely out so in theeantime I asked my daughter and my son to help me out the best they can and my two children got hurt to and they both got upset that no one wanted to fix the roof after I paid out a good $5,000,00.Until I calked ycilkege real estate lawyer and the hospital who done my surgery them two called my two grandmothers family which ate all nurses as I am but am disabled to come and fix their grandmothers home so I would not have to move and they all agreed and they put that $5,000.00 +. $ 1.860.00 (the ssi doctor and ssi lawyer agreed for me to pay) = $6,860.00 a total I spent out of my government ssi social security check in the year’s of 2008 to 2010 to finally get rebuilt. Now the problem was when my SDI doctor went and changed my middle name initial in my ssi check and put 2 extra letters I asked him why did you do that my middle initial is A. my middle name is not Ade
        My whole name on my ssi check is :
        Patricia A. Hernandez
        Patricia Adele Hernandez
        The name Hernandez
        is my married and my divorced name
        My date of birth name is
        Patricia Adele Gundermann
        My date of birth is January 19, 1956
        SoU asked a Dr. Eades and a Linda Hardee what is the problem with the initial middle name being corrected so I can continue getting my ssi checks monthly and not walk out with a misprinted computer paper that has the wrong name or wrong initial name or the wrong patiebt identification number on my ssi income government checks to where I would not have to come back into this office because I only see my doctor every three months for therapy and they told me that everything was going their way up until i got Galveston Texas Nurses and Doctors at the Hosputal who done my surgery and my twi grandmothers family who are nurses that work in and live in Austin Texas and the medicaid/medicare insurance ssi company where the AFDC /WIC medicaid insurance and ssi checks and medicaid/medicare transportation where everything is printed up correctly since I have had insurance for my children and myself since 1976. And plus they are angry because AA rehab therapist and sponsorships are involved on why a another as family member would take so much money just to pay the roofers to fix the house and knowingly leaving their family member out in the cild with out no ssi social security money to pay their bills and buy basic needs and buy groceries to eat and why wete they usefvso ugly afyer a major operation and after their ownothet had died on March 19, 2005 which was my mother’s sobriety birthday and tricia gave her self a nickname name me trish in place of trash like my mother’s second husband used to call me after he changed my brothers and tricia’s name through adopting them after marrying their mother Janey.
        And Tricia’s sobriety date is
        August 29,2005
        Tricia came into the membership in1985 after a nasty divorce
        Tricia has a email
        on Facebook.com at pathss_2003@gmail.com
        on Gmail.com at
        pathss2003@gmail.com.
        Hope to hear from you
        my friend from AA
        That I met on the AA conversation chat line

      2. Just so you know, my legal name is Trish and I’ve been posting here for some months – I was confused when I saw all these comments by “Trish” that I didn’t post.

        Since your legal name is Tricia, and my legal name is Trish, would you mind using your actual name to eliminate confusion?

        Thanks.

  7. this is an interesting website. if people are interested in whether or not “alcoholism” exists these are great resources:

    Stanton peele, inside rehab, her best kept secret, many roads one journey.
    I binge drank for years and out of extreme loneliness went to aa after already quitting on my own. it was nice to have sober people to hang out with and for that I am truly grateful. after a while, it all stopped making sense. the real reason I drank was because of severe depression due to repeated traumas throughout my life. after really working through those with amazing therapists I realized I am in no way an alcoholic. after reading scientific literature about it, I can see a lot of scary things about aa. the “one is to many and a thousand is never enough” type of thinking is a set up. it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy which leads to dangerous relapses. people who try moderation programs or abstain on their own usually have a much gentler and easier time. also- this was one of my favorites- whenever people in the rooms claimed ” ive never seen anyone go out, come back and tell us about what a great time they had” well duh, that’s because those of us who do ‘ go out” and have a great time see no reason to return to aa and tell everyone about it. if people did see how many people left and do well on their own it would undo the bias.

    1. Great comments! There was a recent Washington Post story about a report released by the CDC in the first week of Dec 2014 stating that most excessive drinkers – 9 out of 10 – do *not* fit the definition of “alcoholics”, and according to the WP “…debunks the assumption that most excessive drinkers are dependent on alcohol.”

      Notice that AA didn’t try to make sure that some other health or mental health issue was not your real problem – anyone who shows up must have addiction (and if you think you might not, you’re “in denial”)

      The best thing, now that “mental health parity” requirements make health insurance pay for 12 step/rehab “treatments” for insurers – and taxpayers – to demand evidence-based treatments only. Step one of that would be to prove that there is an actual disease that can be distinguished from plain old bad behavior and not assumed to be the problem when there’s really something else going on (like depression, or thyroid disorders or other bodily dysfunctions that can affect moods). If those who claim to be “treating” “addiction” (or “alcoholism”) can’t deliver a reliable way to physically distinguish between those who have “addiction” and those who are just desperate for another chance from family, lover, boss or court (because those who claim to be “addicted” have already been screened to rule out other medical problems), then there should not be any money going to their “treatments”.

      1. Why don’t you go volunteer at a detox center in your spare time and visually watch a person kicking OxyContin or heroine. Look at the alcoholic with cerossis of the liver dry heaving with trembling hands and yellow, blood shot glossy eyes as they hallucinate from delerium tremens and their babies, wives , husbands, mothers and fathers cry to the Dr. about how much they love them and can they please help their loved one. After you go into the trenches of death and despair lets see how your obviously conservative, self righteous , better than, know it all but don’t know sh-t, evil, hard hearted selfish, grandiose,small minded, ignorant opinion is then. Until then why don’t you go your dr with your medical Insureance and ask them for a lobotomy because that seems to be your only hope.

      2. Hey Anonymous,

        Why don’t you volunteer at a pain clinic and see what it’s like for law-abiding pain patients who are forced to go thru new hoops every year because some “addiction professional” or politician decided it’s still “too easy” to get meds?

        Or any surgical clinic that deals with small kids with painful surgery or medical conditions? Because “addiction professionals” make all these claims about how dangerous drugs are, and that treating pain leads to addiction (not demonstrated by actual science to be true, and according to the American Pain Society, demonstrably False) kids are deprived of sufficient medication to keep them out of pain while recuperating from surgery.

  8. Alcoholism is a chronic disorder. AA is a support group. The Steps can be interpreted many ways and are merely guidelines. I agree with some of your observations regarding individuals attending AA for many reasons other than to stop drinking. However, AA does not meet the criteria of being a ‘cult’.

      1. If you have never ordered a drink and started with the thought of ” I’m only gonna have one” but half way through the first one you started obsessing about the next one and by the end of the night you have blacked out, waking up outside with piss soiled pants in the middle of winter with vomit all over you. Or if you ever had a standard surgery and a decade later you have been hooked on opiates and been to over ten detox centers contemplating suicide, attempting it but failing simply because you can not stop using and drinking even though you want to and have tried every method that medicine, science and religion had to offer and none of them worked them you are highly unqualified and frankly are disrespecting people who suffer from the psychological and physical disease of addiction. Disease simply means not heathy, abnormal. If any of that sounds healthy and normal to you then maybe you should go to AA.

      2. Really? You’ve tried every method offered by science – does that include what they do in every country outside the U.S., which is for a psychology professional to spend a short period of time working with you to help reduce your drinking to more moderate levels?

        No?

        Then you can’t say you’ve tried “everything science has to offer”.

        While you’re drinking one drink you’re “obsessing” about the next one. Really? Why does that sound to me like it was concocted after-the-fact to fit your life story into the AA/NA/WhateverA sin-and-redemption storyline. At any rate, no, I have never ordered one drink then sat around thinking about the next one – that’s what I think is wrong with cocaine, the “high” is basically (from watching old Robin Williams routines), “This is great, I want more!” A truly “great” high would be “This is great, now I want to talk with my friends, swim, paint, listen to music, etc.”

        You would really keep doing something that left you in piss-and-poo-and puke- soiled clothes? And that’s part of “addiction”? Funny, for all the people I’ve seen who claim to be “addicted” I never run across people in the general public with poo pants. I think this is either an exaggeration or a lie.

  9. Who ever wrote this is totally unqualified to comment on AA. Pagan cult? Gimme a fucking break . You clearly have more issues and character.defects then anyone I ever met in AA. And your probably in denial yourself.

    1. And a failed stock swindler supported by his wife is an expert that the whole country should take as an expert on what “alcoholism” is and how to “treat” it?

  10. AA groups I’ve visited and seen run locally have a very strong component of incorporation of Christianity, including the “Lord’s Prayer” somewhere near the closing. Thinking this is a pagan religion is really idiotic, its actually somewhat unfriendly to non Christians except in specific meetings that are run by atheists, depending on the attitude of the atheist which can be down right hostile to Christians or mildly rebuffs the attempts to incorporate religiosity by traditional members. There has been an incorporation or allowance that the term “God” can be one of one’s own choosing to allow for those who are not members of Abrahamic religions, but its fairly dismissive when they say “you can have a doorknob as your higher power if you want, or a light bulb.”

    They do admit for the 12-step programs that they have put something else ahead of that which “should have been” most important in their lives instead of their addiction. AA in some states of the USA is not allowed to receive government referral because of their religious aspects (not pagan, hardly) because of the so-called doctrine of “Separation of Church and State” and being mandatory for people who come afoul of the law due to behavior while intoxicated would be akin to a state sponsored, mandatory religion for some which is against our Bill of Rights, and why some of us left other countries, like England for America (just to be restrictive to others again…like the Puritans of New England).

    1. Christians appropriated pagan practices (celebrating the savior’s birth on 12/25, bringing pine/fir trees indoors, resurrection celebration in later march/early April based on lunar cycles)

      There’s no reason a pagan group can’t appropriate Christian practices.

  11. I stumbled on this site while looking for something else. There are many different ways to get sober. I chose AA and 25 years in have no reason to regret my choice. There was a time early on when this type of site/article/opinion would have aggravated me. Now, I understand it for what it is: whistling in the dark. Since I walk in the light and no longer fear the dark, it just doesn’t bother me. I sincerely hope you find a peace that doesn’t involve knocking other people down in order to feel better about yourself.

    1. Im in total agreement. It doesnt matter what anyone says, because “addictionmyth” is invested in their belief. I stumbled across this too and I wanted to share my experience.

  12. So I’m a alcoholic, my po sent me to outpatient care, they keep pushing the whole meeting sponsor bs, I’ve been sober 7 months without ever stepping into a meeting on this offense which is my 3rd dui,let’s face it if you want to drink you’ll drink. I personally think aa is useless, kinda sad actually, I feel it’s a more social hang out in clicks bs, most of the people don’t even acknowledge your there

    1. You are not an alcoholic. There is no such thing. You can drink if you want. It won’t kill you. If you think you can’t then contact me and we’ll discuss.

      If you have to go to aa then might as well do it and have fun. Just remember you’re not really powerless and then lie like the wind.

      1. As far as being boring, meetings are away for the brainwashers to nitpick at your brain. Ichoose not to attend any more meetings to give into the whem to their demonic desires.

      2. Really? You are saying that to an avowed alcoholic? You are spreading dangerous dogma. Alcoholism kills thousand a year in the United States alone not to mention in other countries. Add to that other addictive drugs and the death rate goes higher. AA is a very worthwhile program that has helped millions of people stay clean and sober and lead a more spiritual life.

    2. Most people worry what others will think if them, it’s called insecurity.
      You attend a.a. to get sober not to be
      Popular or politically correct. Get a set
      And try another meeting. GBY.

      1. To some people who are not only addicts, but also mentally ill, AA can be useless. It’s not your fault so don’t be made at a program that has helped millions to recover.
        Trent

  13. Wow. So as an objective observer just looking for information, it would appear that the mean-spirited, vulgar, unnecessarily vitriolic and name-calling opposition to the person who penned this article affirmed and confirmed through your responses what he said. You people would be real jerks if you weren’t so pitiful, but based on your comments you are just to be ignored.

    1. Thank you! The validation is much appreciated.

      The goal of the web site is to expose AA and its tactics. One of which is to humiliate your opposition with pity or contempt: “I feel sorry for you”. It is sometimes effective as a brainwashing tactic.

      Otherwise, yes these comments shows the cult’s standard reaction to people who disagree with them.

      1. It may surprise u to learn that prior to the publishing of the Big Book, members would read from the Bible and or the Sermon on the Mount. So the idea AA is a pagan cult is ridiculous

      2. The tactics of trying to make others feel “less than” is common amongst other groups, individuals who have ego issues, in the common cultural sense rather than a strict Freudian sense.

        Their methods are old school and they feel they are The One True Way, much as Christianity touts itself. There is no one size fits all for everyone, the “my way or the highway” philosophy sucks and makes a lot of good people unhappy and neurotic.

  14. Wow. Just wow. I knew Christians are ignorant but this is over the top. Normally I wouldn’t respond but this warranted a verbal raid. 1 paganism is about balance where everything living is equal. 2 your so called Christian traditions have pagan roots. For example the Christmas tree is a pagan tradition. Hel your mass echoes of pagan rituals. 3 obviously you don’t suffer from alcoholism or know someone that does. I do. If you did you would be bitching about what brings them aid and comfort. 4 Christianity is way more evil than pagans ever were. I.e. inquisition, crusades, Salem witch trials. I am Odinist incase you all were wondering. I hail the Gods of the Asier, and Vanir. And my ancestors.

    1. Thank you for admitting that AA is a pagan cult. That was the point of the article. It was not a battle of religions, and which is better, or which came first. If your paganism is older and better, then good for you. But I would point out that it’s easy to justify mischief under paganism: the spirit is in the whiskey, and then you drink it, and then it’s in you. Then the resultant sinning isn’t your fault! How convenient. Under Christianity, you are required to obey your God regardless of whether you’re drunk.

      Then you tell the craving lie (“I couldn’t stop drinking no matter how hard I tried”), and good Christians must accept it because they are not supposed to judge, and must forgive if you seem repentant. Even though you will likely relapse but hey that’s not your fault. Thanks Odin! You paganists are clever!

      Well of course I don’t know an alcoholic. Neither do you. Just post your drunkalog and see for yourself. It’s a string of lies and omissions. And have a drink, it will help you relax.

      The simple truth is that you know you’re wrong. Down to your very soul, and your Lord God is not happy with you. So you run from Him and resurrect a dead religion to feel better about yourself. But it’s really just sad and desperate.

      Repent now!!

      1. AA is not a pagan cult. It actually is a branch off of the old Oxford Group of the 1930’s. This is a well known fact. If u read AA history, you can see this for yourself

      2. This idea is absurd. The proof in AA techniques are in the “change” of the person. Every step listed in the 12 steps are Biblicaly supported with scripture and verse. The writer of this article has no understanding of the Bible. AA is not a religious organization therefore cannot be a cult. But there are a lot of churches out there that are cults, more obvious that the argument you have presented here. The “object” is to quit drinking or using drugs. If it works, don’t fix it and watch the victim of the disease die over your cheap explanations of why you disagree. You never offered an answer to the disease or addiction, just your criticisms. How selfish is that? Your big swelling words are like clouds without rain in them……all you need to do is expose yourself to the real world in alcoholism. It will put your head back on straight and you will repent of such nonsense as you have written.

    2. This is not Christian. It’s sad to take a perfectly good Christian life experience and involve it with this. Leave the alcoholism to the alcoholics. The twelve steps helped millions of people why would anyone try to condemn it. I myself would of been dead without a place to go and be with people that know how I feel. Putting AA down is plain dumbass. Go head get drunk fall down listen to this BS and try just try on a Friday or Saturday night to keep yourself sober. Being sober for seven months is a gift but don’t push it. By the time you read this your probably be drinking again. Fool. as a so called alcoholic which I praise you for admitting you’ll be right back drinking. Get your dumbass to a meeting and sit in the back and listen that’s therapy not a cult. Where sick people and meetings are our medicine.

  15. Here is a Q&A with Bill Wilson:
    A – Is Alcoholics Anonymous a new religion? A competitor of the Church?
    A – If these misgivings had real substance, they would be serious indeed. But, Alcoholics Anonymous cannot in the least be regarded as a new religion. Our Twelve Steps have no theological content, except that which speaks of “God as we understand Him.” This means that each individual AA member may define God according to whatever faith or creed he may have. Therefore there isn’t the slightest interference with the religious views of any of our membership. The rest of the Twelve Steps define moral attitudes and helpful practices, all of them precisely Christian in character. Therefore, as far as the steps go, the steps are good Christianity, indeed they are good Catholicism, something which Catholic writers have affirmed more than once.

    Neither does AA exert the slightest religious authority over its members. No one is compelled to believe anything. No one is compelled to meet membership conditions. No one is obliged to pay anything. Therefore we have no system of authority, spiritual or temporal, that is comparable to or in the least competitive with the Church. At the center of our society we have a Board of Trustees. This body is accountable yearly to a Conference of elected Delegates. These Delegates represent the conscience and desire of AA as regards functional or service matters. Our Tradition contains an emphatic injunction that these Trustees may never constitute themselves as a government – they are to merely provide certain services that enable AA as a whole to function. The same principles apply at our group and area level.

    Dr. Bob, my co-partner, had his own religious views. For whatever they may be worth, I have my own. But both of us have gone heavily on the record to the effect that these personal views and preferences can never under any conditions be injected into the AA program as a working part of it. AA is a sort of spiritual kindergarten, but that is all. Never should it be called a religion.

    Asked again Wilson answered with this:

    Alcoholics Anonymous is not a religious organization; there is no dogma. The one theological proposition is a “Power greater than one’s self.” Even this concept is forced on no one. The newcomer merely immerses himself in our society and tries the program as best he can. Left alone, he will surely report the onset of a transforming experience, call it what he may. Observers once thought A.A. could only appeal to the religiously susceptible. Yet our membership includes a former member of the American Atheist Society and about 20,000 others almost as tough. The dying can become remarkably open-minded. Of course we speak little of conversion nowadays because so many people really dread being God-bitten. But conversion, as broadly described by James, does seem to be our basic process; all other devices are but the foundation. When one alcoholic works with another, he but consolidates and sustains that essential experience.

    1. You are, quite simply put, the biggest bag of bloviating, sophist, self-serving horseshit I have ever run across. Why don’t you try the modern novel as a writing form? At least there your fabrications would serve the purpose of advancing an intentionally fictional storyline. Here they are just sad, pathetic lies, from a sad, pathetic person.

      1. Yeah i don’t thou think any of that it’s him speaking. It’s quotes from a guy that’s been dead for 60 years. Nice to see you’re keeping with the theme is the page and just being a vitriolic hate money . I should also add that I hope you die .. Can’t beat em join em right <3

    2. AA IS opposed to Christianity!! True Christianity – Biblical, historical Christianity- the kind that thinks the Bible is the true, infallible Word of God. The kind that knows that getting drunk is a SIN (that naturally flows out of our corrupted sinful natures, along with sins of the heart such as lust, greed, etc.) The kind that recognizes that humanity is fallen and sinful, NOT because we drank and did selfish, evil things, but because we were BORN sinners – we didn’t become sinners when we started sinning, we sin because we ARE sinners. We were born that way because our first parents sinned and poisoned the entire human race. Further, God HATES sin and we are all under condemnation (outside of Christ), and headed for Hell.
      Everyone likes to talk about John 3:16, but reading a little further tells more: ” For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who does not believe is CONDEMNED ALREADY, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.” (The word “believe” means putting ones trust in – it does not mean a mental ascent or intellectual agreement.)

      Sin plays out in different ways in people’s lives, and the differences do not matter to God, who is “no respecter of persons”. But true Biblical Christianity knows that there is only ONE solution to the sin/condemnation problem- and that is to have our sins paid for in Christ. If we are not “in Christ” (saved, regenerated, born-again), straightening out morally doesn’t impress God IN THE LEAST and is worthless on Judgment Day. A person must come to Christ knowing that nothing they do can make them in ANY WAY acceptable to God. Christ lived the perfect life and had the wrath of the Father poured out on Him at the cross. He suffered God’s wrath in our place, FOR us. It’s been called “the Great Exchange”. He suffered God’s fury for us, the wrath that we deserve, and we get His perfect righteousness in exchange for our sin, by trusting in His work on the cross for us.

      So, to reiterate: a true Christian that knows the Bible, knows that an unsaved or unconverted person “getting sober” or doing good, moral things and changing for the better is WORTHLESS in the eyes God. That person, should they die without trusting in Christ for the forgiveness of their sins, will go to hell for eternity, where we ALL belong, outside of Christ.

      And the point I really want to stress: When a person is saved/trusting in Christ’s work, they become a true child of God, and the work of sanctification by the Holy Spirit begins. And simply put, that is the work of the Spirit to cleanse them from sin in their lives, produce good fruit and good works.. These are the only good works that matter to God, the one’s done by the power of His Spirit with the believer’s cooperation and trusting in Him FOR it, see? ..So AA and their Big Book and Step Book completely SHRED all this and is diametrically OPPOSED to it by teaching that a person can be MADE RIGHT WITH GOD (any god, no less) by sobering up, and becoming a spiritual seeker who attempts to be a do-gooder. I hate to disagree with Saint Bill Wilson, but AA IS A PAGAN RELIGION. Jesus said, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.” Why any true Christian would think AA is the place to be, is beyond me!

  16. Yes, because bashing babylonian babie’s heads in and massacring entire tribes is so fucking moral. And then your god torture-murdering his own son to appease his own wrath. Lovely, moral religion you got there. Every pre-Christian society in the world had an ethical code. Most of them were better than Christianity. AA helps people so shut the fuck up.

    1. Some people think that Christianity is Pagan as well, and maybe it is, but I think overall it’s had a civilizing influence. Midlife redemption is common to both AA and Christianity — sin all you want and then see the light (Recovery or Salvation). Both will appeal to sinners. However the Christian God doesn’t laugh along with stories of debauchery as recounted at AA meetings. The “God as we understand him” does. Yes AA helps lots of people — psychos and liars. I think we’d be better off without it. And there would be much less excessive drinking as well.

      1. Yes it goes on everywhere. But they don’t claim it’s a disease, or that they are powerless. The situation is much worse in AA, and there are many web sites out there dedicated to exposing the truth.

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