Steppers are starting to back off the absurd claim that “AA has saved the lives of millions.” Soon they’re going to have to defend their brainwashing suicide cult of powerlessness (and drinking club) against the claim that AA has killed millions.
Compare the death rates for drug, alcohol, and poisoning for countries that have generally high levels of drug and alcohol use but differ significantly on the level of 12 Step infiltration. In this case, US, Sweden, UK and Australia are considered “High” infiltration, and Spain, Italy, Greece and Portugal are considered “Low”.
Annual death rates per 100,000 by country:
| Cause | US | Swe den | UK | Aust ralia | Spain | Italy | Greece | Port ugal |
| Alcohol | 1.6 | 2.1 | 1.1 | 0.9 | 0.4 | 0.2 | 0.3 | 1.1 |
| Drug Use | 1.5 | 1.3 | 2.1 | 0.5 | 1.1 | 0.6 | 0 | 1.3 |
| Poisoning | 8.9 | 3.2 | 2.8 | 3 | 1 | 0.7 | 2.8 | 0.2 |
| Total per 100,000 | 12 | 6.6 | 6 | 4.4 | 2.5 | 1.5 | 3.1 | 2.6 |
| US excess | 0 | 5.4 | 6 | 7.6 | 9.5 | 10.5 | 8.9 | 9.4 |
| Annual excess death* | 0 | 13,500 | 15,000 | 19,000 | 23,750 | 26,250 | 22,250 | 23,500 |
| Excess death (50 years) | 0 | 675, 000 | 750, 000 | 950, 000 | 1,187, 500 | 1,312, 500 | 1,112, 500 | 1,175, 000 |
| Annual Alcohol Consump- tion (liters) |
8.6 | 7.4 | 10 | 10 | 11.4 | 6.9 | 8.2 | 11.4 |
| Opiate Use (percent of population) | 0.57 | 0.1 | 0.9 | 0.5 | 0.6 | 0.8 | 0.3 | 0.7 |
* Based on average US population of 250 million over the past 50 years.
There are over a million excess deaths in the US alone over the past 50 years based on the mortality rates of other countries with even higher alcohol and opiate use (e.g. Spain and Portugal). The cause? Obviously our current ‘treatment’ policy: AA and the 12 Steps along with pseudoscience propaganda brainwashing of children into the ‘addictive diseases’.
And this study shows the drastic increase in Alcoholic Liver Disease during AA’s growth which can account for 500,000 more deaths. And this doesn’t even count the suicides by violent means such as hanging and guns that are also frequent results of ‘treatment’, e.g. Robin Williams and the people who blow their brains out on Vivitrol (whose main difference from placebo is a drastic increase suicide risk).
Let’s not export failed ‘addiction treatment’ to other countries.
So the next time someone claims “AA saved the lives of millions” just say “True, if by ‘saved’ you mean ‘killed'” and point them to this article. My only question at this point is whether to expect the Nobel in Peace or Medicine. (Or perhaps a 12 Step Willy in ‘Ignorance and Arrogance’?)
Sorry Nora!
Addiction? Well yes. You can observe it. But he cause is not observable.
People in chronic pain chronically take pain relievers.
And if your pain is caused by PTSD? That is unobservable at this time.
You are correct about AA. You can not make pain go away with will power.
I just found this sight and not too soon. I follow all the other conspiracies also, chem trails and such. And there is one for those anul probing alein abductors that should be watched out for. But this one is new to me, Millions of dead people and it is not even in the news? Well, boy howdy, that has to be conspiricy right there. This is fascinating. And you can count me in on this bandwagon. Hot damn, it’s good to know somebody is on watch.
I’ll put you down as a vote for ‘Willy’.
85 years ago or so, Roland Hazard went to see Dr. Carl Jung and was pronounced a “hopeless” case, which required a spiritual experience to get remission from. Roland joined the radical Christian Movement called the Oxford Groups and had his experience. The radical Christian movement had a plan to convert the whole world to God – control ( as they understood Him). Roland passed his diagnosis and religious programming to Ebby Thacher who passed it to Bill Wilson. The “powerlessness via allergy/obsession” formulated by AA’s only other medical source – Dr. William Silkworth, explained things to these excessive drinkers that were previously unexplainable. For instance, why, after using every cure or process they could find, and every technique failed, did THIS work? A radical Christian Movement with a thorough program of mind control? It worked for them. Bill Wilson and Dr. Bob sobered up in a Christian organization with a plan of action to change the world through God-Control. If Bill and Bob had just stuck with the information in the book ” The Common Sense of Drinking” by Richard Peabody, there might have been some hope for Common Sense. However, given the company of zealots they were in the midst of, they had to decide that if they were powerless, so was everyone else! Unfortunately that doesn’t mean everyone is powerless! ( See Seligman’s theory of learned helplessness ). When AA members don’t follow their own rules ( See What AA does NOT do on page 37 of the pamphlet “The AA Group”) and try to convince a non-alcoholic that he or she is, in fact powerless and helpless, they are causing harm. ( See Munchausen Syndrome By Proxy on wikipedia). When AA members don’t follow their own rules, like in the AA pamphlet “Medications and other drugs” where it states ” AA members DO NOT play doctor” they are causing harm. ” Doctor ” , in the previous sentence, can also include “amateur psychologist”. The AA Grapevine published a set of Traditions Guidelines and Concepts Guidelines which ask some pretty tough, ego-reducing questions about AA members’ conduct. Disregarding 85 years of research on Alcoholism, Alcohol Abuse, Alcohol use Disorder to convince a bunch of vulnerable folks that they are dying of a disease is beyond reprehensible. And yet, it happens, because it is easier to just give up, accept powerlessness or helplessness and blame the non-existent disease for the consequences of your own decisions. Good reads, are: AA comes of age – A history of alcoholics anonymous. The diseasing of America, how we allowed recovery zealots and the treatment industry to convince us we are out of control. Pass it on – the story of bill wilson and the aa message. Addiction and Recovery for Dummies. Emotional Vampires – Dealing with people who drain you dry.
What a bunch of bullshit this is. Not one time in my 26 years in the programdid anyone ever try to convince me that I have something I don’t. I know I am an alcoholic and noone had to tell me that. What AA does say, if any of you liars care to actually research, is that if you have a problem with drinking we have a solution for you. There is a solution to excessive drinking and it sn’t in this nonsense. One can not fix something if they don’t know what is fixed and you liars are tryign to convince people that they don’t have a problem. It is liars like trish and addictionmyth that are killing millions of people not AA.
Thank You Gavin,If you have a problem with drinking the answer can not be found on line .The answer is in the rooms of Alcoholics Anonymous If you walk into a meeting that does not automatically label you an alcoholic . We can fill in some blanks and let you decide for yourself if you are in the right place.
LMAO, Dubs reply has got to be the best yet to this guys babble. Any way my standard response to this poor horribly bitter fellow.
I attend both AA and NA. Not everyone there is well by any means and I have come across on occasion a pretty sick meeting and you may have to hit a few before you find one your comfortable with but no doubt in my mind it saved my life. My alcoholism and addiction had spiraled to a point that nothing could help me stop. I really did overdose and die. At a time in my life that I did not even believe God existed I might add. I remember waiting for my heart to beat again and suddenly realizing I was no longer breathing as well. I still remember feeling the cold sweep over as I left my body and had my judgement day. I watched my entire life flash before my eyes and then it was over and the vision I was watching shrunk down to a pinpoint like the old school computers used to when you shut them off. I was miracously brought back to life and when I awoke several hrs later I knew without a doubt God had given me another chance. I was saved and truly filled with the Holy Spirit and the next 3-4 days were the most sure that I would never drink or do drugs again and absolutely glorious right up until that 4th day that I started in on my next horrible meth runner and shortly after I no longer believed God existed. This was one of many miracles that have happened in my life and during my addiction. Cause if your an addict or an alcoholic once you finally cross that line of no return there is no amount of fear, chaos, problems, damage to others, or miracles from God that can save you. I don’t care what the scientific facts or religious beliefs are, if your there where I was your fucked. Here is what did save me. My life of chaos and misery that I absolutely hated and although I didn’t want to take that first hit so bad after a couple days sober that I’d manage now n then I still continued to do it. It got so bad that I had to go off by myself until I had that first 1/4-1/2 gram in my system. Even before and as I started up I would get violently ill and puke and dry heave until I was high. This went on for some time. I finally reached a point that was the greatest desperation I have ever reached in my life. This was several years after my death and revival and not only did I not believe God existed I had a hatred for self righteous judgemental “Christians” who don’t truly understand the bible and given me a hatred for the bible as well. In my desperation I walked into an NA room not by court order but of my own free will this time and asked how to get clean and sober. Someone who did not believe in the bible but acted much more like a “Christian” than most who claim to be showed me how to find a God of my understanding and a better way to live through the steps. I have been clean and sober for almost 14 years now and I don’t know for sure if I would still need to go to meetings but I love going. Just tonight I got to spend some time trying to give another struggling addict who just got out of prison this morning some hope he can find a better way of life. Whether he has hit the end of his rope and gets it this time around or not, it certainly did help me grow spiritually to reach out and try help another struggling human being without any judgement or expectations and I really hope he gets it. Anyway my God of my understanding started out as “something bigger than me, helped those people get clean in that room of NA I walked into”. This was my beginning of my path back to God who is still the same I found that day but just grown tremendously and I’ve long ago shortened his name to God. : ) Over time I have continued to work the steps, share my experiences with others, and through additional searching to strengthen my relationship with God I studied all sorts of philosophies, religions, and spiritual beliefs and have come back around to the bible with a complete new understanding than I ever was taught before and accept Jesus as my lord and savior, repent of my sins in his name, and everything I have learned from the bible has strengthened and added to my 12 step program and when I come across people in the rooms who are spiritually ready to hear about God and Jesus on the level that I know him today I love sharing what I know with them and occasionally even get a few to go to church to add to their program. And when I come across someone who was as fucked up as I was when I came into the rooms instead of being a self righteous judgmental prick touting my bible as a saved Christian and telling them they are going to hell if they don’t repent. In the fashion that Jesus teaches me I smile, show them love and compassion as someone once showed me and tell them some of my story as an addict and tell them that there is hope for them if they are willing to find a power higher than themselves and give the steps a try. Then I pray that if it’s Gods will that I may be a vessel of his that I only share what he knows they can handle at that moment so they feel comfortable to stay in the cult. And I pray for them that they may some day be lucky enough to find God in their hearts and accept Jesus as their savior as I have. I’m so sorry that this was not your experience as well. I love my life, I love God, I am so happy I have come to finally begin to understand what the bible is really about and accept Jesus as my lord and savior. I probably read the bible a lot more now days than the big book but I owe it all to this cult. I’m not saying that there aren’t people who get clean and sober other ways and through religion but there are many people such as me who this was the only way it worked and I know it was God guiding me to the best I was able to understand at the time gently back into his grace. If your a “Christian” passing judgement or telling some struggling addict or drunk that AA or NA isn’t the answer and they are going to hell you’d best be careful or you may have a little surprise in your judgement day conversation.
May God bless you ALL!
I have read most of the articles and comments by others I have been sober over 6 years now 2008 I was court mandated to a 90 day in patient facility in New York ( my other choice was 1 yr in state prison ) I went to this rehab with the thought that 3 months without a drink is a good idea for my liver . I was given information on how to come to my own conclusion of whether or not I was alcoholic . I concluded I was and joining AA after my 90 day stay was a good idea .I dove right in following through on the suggestions i was given ( get a sponsor a home group and a commitment ) I set up chairs for a year . My first sponsor never gave me any commands of any kind he simply told me what he had done during his journey in sobriety (26 years at the time ) To wit : We say our prayers We do something for our recovery everyday OR We get drunk I have been taken through the first 164 pages of the” BIG BOOK”which is the program of recovery . That sponsor also never said I must- I have to -or I should He simply shared his experience with me on what he was shown in the first 164 pages My life today is something like a dream i never dreamed it could be . I have found my self respect I may even love myself today AND yes I pray to my Higher Power every morning I do not pray asking my higher power to allow me to stay sober “just for today” I pray that I may be useful to my fellow man ( That is a thought I never had while drinking and drugging.) Iam involved in AA because I want to give back to a fellowship that has shown me I have worth The term CULT does not fit here I have never heard anyone say to anyone WE DONT DO THAT or DONT DO THAT HERE that is big time misinformation . The men and women who come to AA broken find the joy of living a sober spiritual life I have been to funerals for those who came stayed sober for a while and went to drinking again I have heard many people who go back to drinking come back and say it didnt get better ( the drinking that is )Not sure where im going with this Let me conclude by saying I love the life I lead today and being sober I believe God chose to save a wretch like me so why dont I try to help the next person who wants to do something different with his life AA works a CULT no sir it is not!!! God Bless you ALL
I think the fact that you took the time to read this suggests that you have some deep down questions about whether what AA has told you about yourself is really true.
I would suggest you do some more reading. Also, that shorter sentences – and splitting your writing into paragraphs – would make it easier for readers to follow what you wrote.
Thanks for taking the time to read what I wrote. I have 3 boxes full of books and literature that I have read.My only conclusion is I am an alcoholic and AA works for me . I attend 2 or 3 mtgs a week and I’m involved in service that’s it . I’m not one who when his eyes are open spout AA all the live long day . AA has showed me how to have a life I’ve never had before . I look forward to any and all comments .
Does everything you’e read come from AA or from the point-of-view that “addiction” &/or “alcoholism” is a real disease?
You might try some other sources. I find that even though it can be difficult to force myself to read something that I disagree with, or written by someone I have disagreed with on other issues, it can also be an enlightening experience.
Reading this article & comments is just dipping your toes in the water. If you’re right, reading other stuff won’t hurt you.
Please recommend something . I have the time to read .Iam semi retired. I have to admit at times I wonder about the disease concept.
OK start with the Holy Bible. Read it with an open mind and not based on what others told you it means.
the Holy Bible it is Thank You . I have to assume you know most of the program of recovery comes from the Bible . God forbid you say that out loud at an AA mtg. Here’s one for you ” Our AA Legacy to the faith community” It’s a blue workbook written by 3 sponsees of Clarence Snyder who was a sponsee of Dr. Bob Smith Dont know you but am getting to like you PEACE !
There’s a website called The Clean Slate.
For historical info about AA, try The Orange Papers.
The ignorance of suggestion that AA killed millions is frustrating. Now albeit, I have attended meetings when the guest speaker pulled out a gun and forced many in the room to drink until death. Occasionally, after the serenity prayer we’ll all for kicks behead a few newcomers. I even saw one group massacre chickens and snakes and then gave poison Kool aid to all the birthday men and women. It was a real barrel of monkeys. But the best are post meeting knife fights where people kill each other with all kinds of crazy weapons. Man, it’s a real hoot watching people get slaughtered, maimed and killed. But millions? I’ve witnessed hundreds and heard about them killing a quota annually so its more like 350,000 since 1939. I did here they are jealous of movie theaters, schools, and Baghdad so they hope to up the killings in 2015. So maybe they can achieve your wish and pure joy and glee in killing millions. Stop being such a moron with this garbage. You are insulting yourself.
Of course .We need someone to go over the top. In reference to reading the Bible,the program of recovery comes from Matthew 5-7 ( the sermon on the mount ) 1 Corinthians 13 ( referred to as ‘ the love chapter’ ) . and the Book of James ( referred to as ‘the healing book’ ) I am not out to change your mind just hope you can accept there are two sides to every story and perhaps the side you have chosen is not entirely correct. Peace Trish 🙂
And what AA material have you read? How many “saved” alcoholics have you talked to? How many drinks a day are you trying to justify? What do you suggest the alcoholic that is desperate and dying, physically, emotionally, and spiritually do? Nothing? Tell themselves that it is not an addiction? Not a disease? Not anything to do something about? Listen to the people who just say they are a worthless piece of shit? Are you aware that detoxing from alcohol is the MOST dangerous substance to detox from? Do you have a solution?
Wow. You are so brainwashed it’s funny.
Amen
Wonderful! I have 31 years sober do to aa helping me and me helping others. I These sites are all egotistic.
Wouldn’t it make sense to compare death by alcohol to their population size and the ask the question why the difference? For example Portugal which is only 10 mil people (82nd largest country) have the 74 highest death by alcohol rate. While USA is the 3rd largest but is 49th in death rate.
And this is AA’s fault how?
Well, if they take credit for the people who both attend AA & quit drinking, they have to take responsibility for people who both attend AA and wind up more messed up in the head.
Trish you need to understand that not everyone will get better. AA never said that they would only that AA would help people get to the point where they can make better decisions.
Gavin, you need to understand that when a group takes credit for the successes of those who follow their method, the group must also accept responsibility for those who follow their method and suffered failure.
So, Addiction Myth,..you say AA has killed millions. Let us hear from 10 you have saved. Put your cards on the table, let us see your helping hand.
Everyone who’s read this article has been saved. Including you!
Yup, cause I caught a resentment and followed aa’s suggestion and went to a MTG. This blog is based on ARROGANCE.
I am still waiting. Stand up and show your colors,….. who have you saved. You have proved how much you hate AA,……let us see your cards on the table. Amigo,,,,you are sitting at table with no cards in your hand. You are choking your chicken. Let’s get real. Face up,..all cards on the table. Let us hear from some of the people you have saved.
Yikes. Take a deep breath. Serenity now… serenity now…. Sounds like someone needs to do a step 7.
In AA you have no will no power. Everything that ever happened to you is YOUR FAULT because YOU’R AN ALCHOLIC not a human being you are nothing AA blames you for all who have hurt you
This comment is for anyone who wants to believe that AA is effective has never hurt anyone. In the early 1980’s AA medical counsel Dr Vaillant conducted project SHARP, a 7 year study intended to, in his words “once and for all show the effectiveness of this program”. No need to take my word for it. Google AA SHARP project” or “AA effectiveness” and you will find many websites that feature the study. To Dr Vaillants credit, it was a very scientific and systematic study, no doubt intended to be used for many years as absolute proof of the effectiveness of AA. But it didn’t quite turn out that way, or as Dr Valiant put it: “But then came the rub”. Instead of showing the effectiveness of AA, it showed something else entirely. First off, it showed that the type of treatment made little difference in predicting likelihood of success. AA, CBT or no treatment at all were all very close. In a fatal blow to the idea of “powerlessness”. it seemed that what really mattered was decision to turn their life around. The individual person succeeded, not the program. If that was the whole story it wouldn’t be a disaster for AA, but as they say on infomercials: But wait, there is more! Since the whole 12 Step treatment model is built on the statement that addiction is a disease (it would be hard to collect those fat insurance rehab payments otherwise), the most important thing in a medical study of treatment of any disease isn’t to find out out how well it works, but to make sure it doesn’t have the potential to harm the patient. And this is where AA failed horribly: The (randomly assigned) AA participants were found to binge drink at a rate roughly 900% higher than those who received CBT. Not only that, they where also found to binge drink at a rate that was about 500% higher than the subjects who received no treatment at all. When you consider that binge drinking is closely tied to accidental death and suicide, the next number won’t come as a surprise: the mortality of subjects randomly assigned to AA where 30% higher than those fortunate enough to be assigned either CBT or get no treatment at all.This was consistent both at the 1 and 7 year mark. These aren’t just numbers. The 30% represents real people with names, families, hopes, dreams and a future. In other words, this study killed people. If AA was really about helping people with addiction instead of being about AA and the multi billion dollar rehab industry that is built around it, AA would still publish the study and feature it in materials and on their websites along with a statement along the lines of “while we believe strongly that the AA program can help many people, it also has the potential to harm or even kill”. Needless to say, this study is nowhere to be found in AA literature or on any website that I am aware of. This study used a couple of hundred people. Tens of thousands are coerced into AA every year. There is no reason to believe that people who are forced to AA fare any better than those unfortunate who ended up randomly assigned to it in this study.If you are one of the few people who find that AA works for you; congratulations, keep doing what works for you. But the truth is that in all likelihood, AA harms or kills more people than it helps.
I googled the terms you suggested but didn’t find anything about mortality. This was the best summary I found:
http://www.hamsnetwork.org/effective.pdf
In a study of a few hundred people, a 30% increase in mortality (over a small number) would not be significant. If you have specific links feel free to post them. Legit links are not flagged by the spam filter.
Another poorly sourced article written by someone who has read a handful of publications and be then considers himself an authority on the subject. Probably an upstart rehab center owner or co-owner who is jealous that AA has survived longer than any addiction program and is self-sustaining by individual contributions of its members. Don’t go away mad ….. just go away!
Totally agree with your comments! Personally I think AA should come with a warning label after what I went through. I drank when I was a lot younger and quit for 30 years because I drank abusively. I had no idea what AA was in 1981 at age 20, I just knew I had a major problem and I stopped drinking. I don’t remember the date only the year because it made no difference to me. Fast forward 30 years and after a series of tragedies compiled in one year (4 deaths of loved ones, including my father, and a 29 year marriage ending in divorce) I went off the deep end and in an eleven month period I nearly drank myself to death. I finally decided to get my act together and end my pity party and I decided to stop drinking again. However, this time I landed myself in the hospital with severe withdrawals. My counselor and doctor talked me into rehab. I agreed because I needed help with detox. However, I was not informed that rehab is basically indoctrination into the world of AA and I still didn’t know what AA was all about. I remember reading the 12 Steps for the first time and not being able to put Step 1 out of my mind. I didn’t believe I was powerless and I didn’t believe I had a disease because I believe addiction is caused by behavior and the Disease Theory is nonsense. I wanted to leave at that point, but I had spent 5 days, of which I hardly remember, in detox and I was informed if I left it would be against medical advice and I would be stuck with a huge bill. I didn’t have any money because I had moved in with my mother after my divorce in a different city and was looking for work. I was still covered on my soon to be ex-husbands insurance and really didn’t have much of a choice. I stayed, what caused me to return to abusive drinking was never addressed, I was severely depressed, and within weeks they had me buying this nonsense. I completed rehab, completed my 90/90 days of more brainwashing, got a controlling sponsor who decided that every day for a year was more appropriate, sat in boring meetings hearing the same things repeated including their numerous sayings, worked the steps, which meant I actually had to read the Big Book and that’s where it all began to make sense to me. I’m a Christian and a lot of what I was reading just did not set well with me. I began to ask questions, which I soon learned was not permissible. Meanwhile months had passed and I still had not found a job and my depression kicked into high gear. I made the mistake of discussing my problems with a few AA fanatics. I was informed that I must not be working the steps, reading my Big Book enough, attending enough meetings, etc. In other words I was an AA failure! One day I relapsed big time and while highly intoxicated I took pills and nearly killed myself. I ended up in another hospital for a while after that experience and ironically one of my fellow members was there for the same reason, so at least I wasn’t alone. After that experience I investigated the history of AA, it founders, and the beliefs of those from who they drew their ideals and it all came together, I was in a dang cult and got the heck out of there. I can identify with your comments as I lived it and nearly became a statistic. That experience was two years ago. Today I drink a beer or two once every couple of months or so and nothing more and I don’t owe my success to the program of AA, but to my own will power, not believing I’m powerless, and asking God for guidance. If AA works for an individual, that’s great, but this program needs to be honest with the public about what their really all about. The American public, including myself before this experience, just think that AA is a program that is caring and there to help the recovering alcoholic. They may be there to help, but not in a way of which I either approve or agree with and for some such as myself, it’s a path that leads to further destruction.
Your story is a very powerful indictment not only of 12 steps, but of the rehab facilities that are vacuuming up insurance & government money “treating” this imaginary “disease”.
But before believing AA ever helped anyone, one has to take into account the fact that there’s a proportion of the drinking population that will reduce/stop drinking on their own – the rate at which people do this without AA must be subtracted from the number of people AA claims to have helped. If the proportion of people who’ve quit/lowered their level of using alcohol/drugs to the point of it not being a problem is the same number as the proportion of people who join AA and successfully quit, then AA doesn’t work. If the number is Lower, that would mean AA is an impediment to quitting.
We should take into account the fact that AA has not spread to other countries. People in European countries who think they’re drinking to excess get help learning to drink less – not to swear off demon alcohol, pray to a higher power that they “choose” (as long as it’s not rejected by the group) and proselytize this belief system to others.
Blah blah blah
After attending AA meetings for 43 years, from L.A. , e.g.,The Pacific Group, the San Fernando Valley, “The Nest,” “The Hole in The Wall Club,” etc., several years ago listening to NPR’s Paul Harvey’s dialogue on the cult of AA, I began to recall simularities in Mr. Harvey’s description of AA as a cult with my first-hand personal experiences. Then, while attending AA meetings in Lake Tahoe for 19 years, began to notice key phrases that would lead the vulnerable to identify with the brainwashing of a propagation of personal powerlessness, widespread feminine sexual availability, which I’ve witnessed for years, without getting involved, due to obvious reasons, etc. So, now, there are considerations of a class-action lawsuit against local individual members of AA, some in the New York office and others to be filed under the auspices of the civil rights act of 1964 and other relevant federal case authorities.
Bill – you are all over the place here. What class-action lawsuit are you talking about? Locally? Is that in California or the New York office? The “brainwashing” you are talking about …. can you be more specific? There are devious, unscrupulous people in every facet of society and business throughout the world. As far as I’m concerned, I have found no such lawsuits publicized in my research. I’m not saying they aren’t out there, but will you please cite your source?
Russia has almost zero AA and an extreme death rate from alcohol. The absece of AA does not seem to be helping anyone there.
MOSCOW — A new study by an international team of public health researchers documents the devastating impact of alcohol abuse on Russia — showing that drinking caused more than half of deaths among Russians aged 15 to 54 in the turbulent era following the Soviet collapse.
The 52 percent figure compares to estimates that less than 4 percent of deaths worldwide are caused by alcohol abuse, according to the study by Russian, British and French researchers published in Friday’s edition of the British medical journal The Lancet.
Maybe your anti AA treatment will save lives in Rodina, Mother Russia.
And as for Russia, that is a good point! They have a long well documented history of government policy and propaganda encouraging vodka consumption to raise revenue and reduce political dissent. They also have a very popular psychiatric technique called ‘coding’ (completely bogus) that supposedly made drinking lethal but of course only increases binge drinking. Very similar to AA in terms of the dangerous binge/abstinence cycle. But you’re right, AA isn’t big in Russia. (PS Thanks to your hp for giving you permission to use your brain!)
http://www.marketplace.org/topics/world/russia-rx/killer-cure-alcoholism-russia
In Russia alcoholism has been a serious problem for centuries. There has been progress in the Ukraine over the past decade though. AA has made in roads and has gain both popularity and successes.
Statistics can be juggled and used to debate any side of any debate. Polititions have done it forever. You have left out many countries,……here is a link to the over all global scene.. The US is #49 of nearly 200 coutries. Not good,…….but a far cry from the picture you are trying to concoct with your small,selective list.
http://www.worldlifeexpectancy.com/cause-of-death/alcohol/by-country/
I chose large developed countries with similar social, cultural, economic and genetic factors and high alcohol consumption. Of course there are countries like Guatemala and Turkmenistan, but they wouldn’t have much relevance on the question. If there are other countries you think would be good comparisons then try it yourself with the data and see! Post your results here! No one’s stopping you! I won’t tell your hp! It will be our little secret!
Aren’t you the condescending one.
Again, where is your plan to help others to use other methods instead of AA? I haven’t heard any of that. Just you pushing statistics, being condensending to others, and putting down AA. And it’s not AA who claims to have the answers-AA as a whole has no opinion on issues that don’t affect them. AA does not use advertising or promote AA. It’s all word of mouth from people using it to regain their lives. If there is a better solution, put out or shut up!
Can you post the source for the above stats?
Thanks.
The sources are in the links.
Thanks – so it’s like a compilation. Got it.